Tib there are a few things I have to take issue with.

(November 29, 2015 at 12:43 am)Tiberius Wrote: I would argue the fetus already has the right to use someone else's body, because the reproductive system is specifically "designed" for that purpose.

I think we can pretty much agree on that, however for a foetus to have a right to life it also has to be uniquely living (nor merely made up of a bunch of living cells). By 8 weeks of gestation the human foetus is indistinguishable from an animal foetus, and brain activity doesn't begin until after ~20 weeks of gestation. If an adult human being is alive with no brain activity it is legal grounds for unplugging them from life-support, and it doesn't require any provisions for euthanasia. Therefore, before 20 weeks of gestation we can reasonably say that the foetus is not yet fully alive. So I do have an ethical problem from 20 weeks (and note that in most places abortion is legal up to 22 weeks), however it should be noted that the majority of abortions are performed before 18 weeks of pregnancy.

(November 29, 2015 at 12:43 am)Tiberius Wrote: Very comfortable, if done for the right reasons. In fact, the government already does tell me what I cannot do with my private parts: it's illegal to piss in public. I'm fine with that; I understand why it's illegal.

Really? Why is public urination illegal Tib?

The problem with criminalising abortion is the same problem with criminalising other victimless crimes, such as prostitution. People are still going to do it - yes perhaps only a fraction of those who would do it when it's legal, but those who opt to do it illegally will have to use less than safe practises, run the risk of infection or other medical complications, and worst of all they might be gaoled for the offence. Even if you don't believe that people should ever choose abortions, we live in the real world and letting people have that choice, and proving a safe environment without labelling them as criminals is much better than the alternative.

(November 29, 2015 at 5:12 am)Aractus Wrote: What is it with yanks and wanting to label people as either "pro choice" or "pro life"? It's like they believe that only extremes exist.

What gets me though is the way that yanks somehow think that the rest of world shares their narrow-minded world-views. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean you specifically, I just mean this whole debate about having labels and expecting people to side either with "pro choice" or with "pro life".

Trust me -- we don't give a fuck what you think. This is internal American politics. You'll do best to refrain from speaking out of ignorance ... not that that is your strong point.

(November 29, 2015 at 8:15 am)Judi Lynn Wrote: Abortions are legal in the US. Are they not legal in the UK?

Of course they are... I guess I must have said something that was misunderstood. Apologies for being crap at explaining.

(November 29, 2015 at 8:55 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Trust me -- we don't give a fuck what you think. This is internal American politics. You'll do best to refrain from speaking out of ignorance ... not that that is your strong point.

Exactly my point - you don't give a fuck what anyone who isn't a loud-mouth American has to say.

(Embryo =/= fetus btw)

They are legal in Great Britain, except for parts of Ireland, as far as I know. Almost certainly religious reasons in Ireland.

I've only been speaking hypothetically should it become illegal.

I agree Evie, punishing for the sake of punishing is pointless. For me anyway, the primary reason to put someone in jail is to protect society from them. Secondarily it gives them a "time out" and the chance to think about what happened. It's far from a perfect system, but we just can't have dangerous people walking around.

Is this really fitting for someone who has had an abortion? If I was forced to choose a deterrent, I would make it something like three strikes and you get sterilised, not counting rape. I don't feel at all comfortable with that, but I'd still prefer it to jailing people.

I would have thought having to go through the abortion is deterrent enough to stop people endlessly doing it.

Really, if we're going to say handing over babies into adoption is "desirable", then why isn't everyone out having as many children as possible regardless of their means, in order to provide more and more "life"?

Yes in northern Ireland even if your foetus has Anencephaly (which will result in stillbirth), you cannot get an termination. However, people can still travel to Scotland, Wales, or England (i.e. anywhere in G.B.) and have the pregnancy terminated there. Note that in most first world countries the vast majority of Anencephaly cases are managed with termination.

(November 29, 2015 at 9:01 am)Aractus Wrote:

(November 29, 2015 at 8:55 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Trust me -- we don't give a fuck what you think. This is internal American politics. You'll do best to refrain from speaking out of ignorance ... not that that is your strong point.

Exactly my point - you don't give a fuck what anyone who isn't a loud-mouth American has to say.

Is this suppose to convince us to listen to an ignorant loud mouthed Australian with a demonstrated perverse anti-American streak?

Here, why don't you fucking learn something before opening your pie hole again:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2...ins-107133

(November 29, 2015 at 12:55 am)Tiberius Wrote: Honestly, when debating abortion with me (and other anti-abortion people), you only need to convince me of one thing: that human embryos / fetuses aren't human or don't deserve the same human rights as the rest of us.

It would also be helpful if you could tell me when human rights are bestowed on a new human. Does it happen at birth? If so, would you be supportive of abortion right up until birth? Should a woman be allowed to abort the baby in the middle of labor? If not, why not? At what point does killing a baby in the womb become immoral / murder?

I think where the line is for me is when the fetus is viable outside the womb. Until then, it's not a free-living entity.

(November 29, 2015 at 1:01 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, there are 2 debates to be had in the abortion discussion:

1. Is a human fetus a human being?

In the same sense that an acorn is an oak tree.