(December 11, 2015 at 8:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(December 11, 2015 at 8:44 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: I don't think it has any deep roots. It's just an accident of history. And we can change things. That's my contention.

We have believing brains.  You can no more shuck that off than you can choose not to feel.  That's not an accident of history, it's part of the warp and woof of our evolution as a social species.

Jesus fucking Christ.


I'm talking about religious belief here. You don't have it. Can we help other people lose it too or not?

I think you're getting too heated and completely ignoring the point of the OP. You believe the numbers can change, and they can, but the deeper question is why don't they? I believe there are strong reasons why they don't change; you do not. We disagree and I don't know how much further than that you can get.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:37 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: But their 'own time and their own reasons' doesn't really mean anything. You are, essentially, a product of your environment. You can't have any ideas in an intellectual vacuum.

You're kind of being a greedy reductionist there though. You're kind of explaining away everything with the word "environment" when of course within that it's all full of lots of details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism

It's like saying a painting is "nothing but paint and brushstrokes", technically true but your answer kind of leaves our all the meaning.

Yes what you are saying is essentially true, but you know what I mean: You can't argue people out of their faith.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:58 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I think you're getting too heated and completely ignoring the point of the OP.

I agree he is and he thinks I was LOL

EP does a lot of projecting. Take some of your own advice, EP, and you'll do just fine.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Evie Wrote:

(December 11, 2015 at 8:37 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: But their 'own time and their own reasons' doesn't really mean anything. You are, essentially, a product of your environment. You can't have any ideas in an intellectual vacuum.

You're kind of being a greedy reductionist there though. You're kind of explaining away everything with the word "environment" when of course within that it's all full of lots of details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism

It's like saying a painting is "nothing but paint and brushstrokes", technically true but your answer kind of leaves our all the meaning.

Yes what you are saying is essentially true, but you know what I mean: You can't argue people out of their faith.

Yes, you can.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:37 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: Ok, back to being ignored.

LOL and I'm the one being too serious? I'm the one who needs to lighten up?

(December 11, 2015 at 9:01 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: Yes, you can.

Any examples at all?

There's plenty examples of people losing their faith who weren't argued out of it... are there any where they were?

Oh, and I thought you were ignoring me?

P.S. Lighten up.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:53 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: Jesus fucking Christ.

Calm down man!

Lol, you think I need to.....

(December 11, 2015 at 8:58 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I think you're getting too heated and completely ignoring the point of the OP.  You believe the numbers can change, and they can, but the deeper question is why don't they?  I believe there are strong reasons why they don't change; you do not.  We disagree and I don't know how much further than that you can get.

I'm not getting too heated. It was simply a show of exasperation. I can't say fuck without you getting agitated? 

You can get a lot further by talking about why we disagree. I get the impression you do because you got misinformed.

(December 11, 2015 at 8:50 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: How exactly do you think you're religious and how does that compare to actual religiosity?

You probably know my line on soldiering, you probably know that I'm a rabid patriot, and I'm certain that my wife is the greatest human being that's ever lived.  I don't think it would be difficult to argue that my behavior and positions in just those three areas (and there are more) at least borders on religiosity, if it doesn't effectively stand in for religiosity. They affect my decisions, and while I hold them to be absolutely true I cannot demonstrate that any of them -are- true.

My positions on matters more traditionally considered religious are, in the absence of having to deal with asshats who think fairies are really real...more accomodating towards religious narratives than those same asshats who profess to believe in them. I subscribe more to the message than they do.....imo, because the gods aren't getting in the way with their massive weight. I'm a fairly religious guy, just not about gods, lol.