(December 19, 2015 at 7:32 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 19, 2015 at 5:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: You have to be careful with who you link to. The Neturei Karta are a very strange, very religious and very small cult in the Jewish world, notable for attending holocaust denial conferences. I think to use them as an example of Jews being against Israel is pretty bad form. Not that there aren't Jews that think Israel is a bad idea. Many secular Jews in the US do.

Then, why don't the same be applied to ISIS ? just arguing, that many conflicts -like the conflict in Syria- is actually witnessing the acts of a small extremist weird sect in the Muslim world calling itself "ISIS".

Above all, here is a quote from the Neturei Katra about page :

Quote:Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.

Your statement, about the amounts of secular Jews who are against Israel, approve the above statement.  Denying the holocaust is an opinion, that should be protected under the laws & rules of the freedom of speech. 

Many atheists too, deny the massacres of Israel against Muslims, and ironically it's an accepted view despite the modern evidence that includes documents, graves & video footages.

In that case, denying the holocaust should not be a view that demonizes its carrier.

Because ISIS has hundreds of times the numbers of people as Neturei Karta. Maybe thousands. I would be very concerned for the world if Neturei Karta had nearly the popularity as ISIS. That they claim to not be extremists because they are following the Torah or Talmud is exactly what ISIS would say about why they aren't extremists, and both of them would be right about following their respective holy books. ISIS follows the Qu'ran better than any other Islamic group. Neturei Karta is only not ISIS because they are a small group. ISIS is not small. ISIS has conquered countries. Neturei Karta couldn't conquer a bagel shop.

(December 19, 2015 at 11:56 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 19, 2015 at 8:10 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: So?   Several other victims of western imperialism understood and embraced modernity.  As a result they made themselves victims no longer.  In fact, of all the cultures of any size and scope that ran afoul of modern western imperialism, almost everyone that weren't destroyed by the initial collision have managed to embrace modernity within 50-150 years or so and raised themselves to parity or near parity with the west in modernity,  all but those blighted by Islam.

It is a necessary attribute for a culture to adapt that which is practically better.  it say it is the crime of the west to pick on Islamic world is utterly irrelevant.  To be weak and unable to become strong may be no crime, but it is a sure predictor of being picked on.   To harp on those who pick on the weak while not address what kept the weak weak is about as useful as claiming gravity committed a crime by pulling a man who failed secure himself to his death, therefore men ought not to be blamed for not securing themselves.

Practically, Islam has been unable to surmount itself to become modern.  Therefore it must either prevent the world from becoming modern, or it would become victim of one or another that does.  

Islam's crime is doubled down on the utterly repulsive as well as utterly impossible goal of rolling back modernity, and have shown itself prepared to exact any price that seem necessary upon those it afflicted while in the vain pursuit of this objective, rather than either dying, or adapt itself to modernity.  So either Muslims consign themselves forever to struggling feebly, and ever less effectually if more violently, against modernity, or Muslims must kill any aspects of Islam that ties Muslim societies to the desert primitivism, so those who had been Muslims can gain parity in the modern world.

Literally, you are saying : "it's either our way or the highway". You make me sick.


Wake up; the western way turned the world into a crowded-armed to the teeth-atomic fortresses, awaiting a spark to ignite their misery into a big mushroom cloud. 
A world connected by a fragile and corrupted economy that is waiting to fall down any minute. I thought 2008 was an enough reminder, of what western imperialism did to the world ?

Those who "adapted" or let me say "mutated" will fall down with the rotten economy.

Now, an Islamic system based on "GOLD" instead of paper money and "moneylending with interest" would've savored the world this dark grim state.


Stuff changed a lot between 2000 and 2015. To the worst. Ask economists if you don't believe me.

The west, cornered itself and wired the whole world with it in a sealed room, with ton-load of bombs, with the sealing of the room leaking gas. That's the "legacy" of the west if you ask me.

Sorry, in my quoted response, a sentence needs to be corrected : add "preventing" before " moneylending with interest".

(December 19, 2015 at 11:56 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 19, 2015 at 8:10 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: So?   Several other victims of western imperialism understood and embraced modernity.  As a result they made themselves victims no longer.  In fact, of all the cultures of any size and scope that ran afoul of modern western imperialism, almost everyone that weren't destroyed by the initial collision have managed to embrace modernity within 50-150 years or so and raised themselves to parity or near parity with the west in modernity,  all but those blighted by Islam.

It is a necessary attribute for a culture to adapt that which is practically better.  it say it is the crime of the west to pick on Islamic world is utterly irrelevant.  To be weak and unable to become strong may be no crime, but it is a sure predictor of being picked on.   To harp on those who pick on the weak while not address what kept the weak weak is about as useful as claiming gravity committed a crime by pulling a man who failed secure himself to his death, therefore men ought not to be blamed for not securing themselves.

Practically, Islam has been unable to surmount itself to become modern.  Therefore it must either prevent the world from becoming modern, or it would become victim of one or another that does.  

Islam's crime is doubled down on the utterly repulsive as well as utterly impossible goal of rolling back modernity, and have shown itself prepared to exact any price that seem necessary upon those it afflicted while in the vain pursuit of this objective, rather than either dying, or adapt itself to modernity.  So either Muslims consign themselves forever to struggling feebly, and ever less effectually if more violently, against modernity, or Muslims must kill any aspects of Islam that ties Muslim societies to the desert primitivism, so those who had been Muslims can gain parity in the modern world.

Literally, you are saying : "it's either our way or the highway". You make me sick.


Wake up; the western way turned the world into a crowded-armed to the teeth-atomic fortresses, awaiting a spark to ignite their misery into a big mushroom cloud. 
A world connected by a fragile and corrupted economy that is waiting to fall down any minute. I thought 2008 was an enough reminder, of what western imperialism did to the world ?

Those who "adapted" or let me say "mutated" will fall down with the rotten economy.

Now, an Islamic system based on "GOLD" instead of paper money and "moneylending with interest" would've savored the world this dark grim state.


Stuff changed a lot between 2000 and 2015. To the worst. Ask economists if you don't believe me.

The west, cornered itself and wired the whole world with it in a sealed room, with ton-load of bombs, with the sealing of the room leaking gas. That's the "legacy" of the west if you ask me.

For all the problems of western modernity, it had no problems, have no problems, and will have no problems stomping on cultures besotted by Islam, and the best you can do is screaming "you suck".

Which sort of proves the main effect of Islam on you is make you incorrigibly backward, incorrigibly in denial, and bitterly resentful of anyone who would point that out to you.

(December 20, 2015 at 4:06 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: For all the problems of western modernity, it had no problems, have no problems, and will have no problems stomping on cultures besotted by Islam, and the best you can do is screaming "you suck".

Which sort of proves the main effect of Islam on you is make you incorrigibly backward, incorrigibly in denial, and bitterly resentful of anyone who would point that out to you.

How dare you judge me, or even claim to know me enough to throw such accusations ?
You are in no position to judge anybody . and if you excuse me, discuss the topic and don't get us sidetracked into fighting ghosts in an infinite circle. Leave that way of barbaric childish discussion out of my topic. Don't make it personal, because that's just savage and worthy of a kiddy-garden kind of forum.

But actually, there are many westerners who don't agree on your fascist, xenophobic behavior. 

The west, should keep it to its own borders, and keep its gun & violence away from other cultures, if a culture is already violent, then fuel should not be poured on the turmoil. "stomping" other cultures -as you say it-. cause the deaths of thousands of innocent, and create more & more hostiles.

I advice you to have balls big enough to respect the freedom of thought & speech you claim carrying, and realize that the choice of somebody being a "Muslim" is a choice that you should respect.

You are ignorant about "war" and just don't realize -or maybe you do but so ...whatever.... to care-, stomping other cultures and fighting other cultures CAUSE DEATH. people die. children burn. Can't you understand ????

It's the fault of that who deployed the drone and fired the missile, not the fault of the Muslim writing from his laptop to you. That's our topic anyhow.

(December 20, 2015 at 12:41 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: Because ISIS has hundreds of times the numbers of people as Neturei Karta. Maybe thousands. I would be very concerned for the world if Neturei Karta had nearly the popularity as ISIS. That they claim to not be extremists because they are following the Torah or Talmud is exactly what ISIS would say about why they aren't extremists, and both of them would be right about following their respective holy books. ISIS follows the Qu'ran better than any other Islamic group. Neturei Karta is only not ISIS because they are a small group. ISIS is not small. ISIS has conquered countries. Neturei Karta couldn't conquer a bagel shop.

Sorry cap, that comment slipped by. Blame my clumsiness.

I hold no position of defense on behalf of the Neturei Karta, despite their stand -i.e being religious-, it furthermore prove that Israel is a a British and zionist problem. The Balfour declaration is indeed no more than a British Zionist problem. Though, opposing the Balfour treaty, that countries like "Saudi Arabia" pledged to protect, is a humanitarian cause that every human with the slightest bit of humanity should oppose.

You're wrong about ISIS following the Quran, actually they follow the "Sunni Wahhabi" Islam; which is just like the Neturei Karta, a small sect from the many sects of Islam. You should be worried though, because one of the biggest allies of the U.S and the west, is Saudi Arabia, which is the creator of the "Sunni Wahhabi" sect.

(December 20, 2015 at 7:16 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 12:41 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: Because ISIS has hundreds of times the numbers of people as Neturei Karta. Maybe thousands. I would be very concerned for the world if Neturei Karta had nearly the popularity as ISIS. That they claim to not be extremists because they are following the Torah or Talmud is exactly what ISIS would say about why they aren't extremists, and both of them would be right about following their respective holy books. ISIS follows the Qu'ran better than any other Islamic group. Neturei Karta is only not ISIS because they are a small group. ISIS is not small. ISIS has conquered countries. Neturei Karta couldn't conquer a bagel shop.

Sorry cap, that comment slipped by. Blame my clumsiness.

I hold no position of defense on behalf of the Neturei Karta, despite their stand -i.e being religious-, it furthermore prove that Israel is a a British and zionist problem. The Balfour declaration is indeed no more than a British Zionist problem. Though, opposing the Balfour treaty, that countries like "Saudi Arabia" pledged to protect, is a humanitarian cause that every human with the slightest bit of humanity should oppose.

You're wrong about ISIS following the Quran, actually they follow the "Sunni Wahhabi" Islam; which is just like the Neturei Karta, a small sect from the many sects of Islam. You should be worried though, because one of the biggest allies of the U.S and the west, is Saudi Arabia, which is the creator of the "Sunni Wahhabi" sect.

ISIS follows the qu'ran in several ways other Muslims in the world don't. The Qu'ran sanctions and gives instructions on the treatment of slaves, which ISIS follows as they follow the example of Muhammad in enslaving people. Other muslims puss out and give into the social pressure of the outside world in not having slaves. That's just one of dozens of examples of how ISIS is more faithful to the Qu'ran and Muhammad.

So it's all the West's fault then, is that your story?

(December 18, 2015 at 6:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I leave it to you.

You do that. The problem is that you never will.

If you were truly sure that Islam was anything better than a mass delusion, then you wouldn't be attempting to vindicate it (and yourself for believing it) here, where we need nothing of the sort.

Oh, and I could truly care less that you want to prove Islam is not an evil or violent religion. History proves again and again how all religions become violent when a large sectarian group, or an alliance of the same controls enough people. The purpose of a religion is not to teach people how to live better, at this they fail miserably. If you think you are a good family man on account of your religion, then you are misappropriating credit - the only thing any religion does for you is dull your thinking in exchange for the social camaraderie of the group. Of course camaraderie is beneficial, but the price is your ...er, soul, which is actually your mind (just try and go anywhere outside of your body without the mind which remembers everything, especially when the mind is dead). This is how they get people to feel and react more, while thinking less. The more your religious leaders can get people to react without thinking, the more they can control you. T_h_i_s is why evangelical world religions were invented!

People are bitter because Western governments are full of hypocrites, and we wouldn't have many of today's problems if people stopped trying to court the Saudi ruling class. True, not all of the problems in the world can be pinned to Western interference - but many can. I love this photograph because it is a brilliant example of American hypocrisy:


AtlasS33, you forgot to mention that the PKK is Socialist/Communist; they would never accept the Sharia because they are secular. Indeed, they have women soldiers on the front-line, something that's hard for many, even in the West to accept. Iraq needs to split into at least three countries as the borders imposed on it by the West are troublesome.

You know, the middle east(What is now Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel) Were not historically muslims, we were christians and jews(and the regular amount of atheists), living happily, crucifying each other's prophets, trading. It was a very prosperous region(heavy emphasis on was)It was the trade gateway between India and Europe, it was an area where people of different cultures meet etc... Then the muslims crawled out of the sands of the Arabian peninsula and decided to fuck everything up(don't they always). And what once was the cradle of civilization became the shittiest place on earth. I think Europe and the US ought to remember that.