(December 25, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Delicate Wrote:

(December 25, 2015 at 6:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No, they don't come back EVER. There is a medical window, which can mean misdiagnosis, the vitals flying under the radar but not beyond the window. As the story is intended the reader to believe, Jesus went beyond that window. Now if he/God/Jesus, were a really supernatural being, funny how we never see decapitated humans come back. Now here is where you cop out to "yea his body died, but his spirit lived". Ok why not write the story with Jesus being beheaded and regrow his own head on the spot?

There is no such thing as a soul or spirit. There is only human flawed perceptions because of fear of being finite. Life evolved with fight or flight which is why we look both ways when crossing the street. But there is no afterlife. That is a gap filling idea to avoid thinking about our finality. Do you think about how horrible your pre life was, or how Jesus or God will punish you for all the time before you were born? How did that non existence feel?

When your body dies you die, that is it. Try smashing the computer you type your arguments on with a sledge hammer then expect it to work the same. Try expecting a totaled car to work the same as one that is in tact.

Jesus is a myth. The idea of ascension into heaven and an afterlife is much older than the modern monotheistic religions. Long before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus was claimed to be the divine savior of humanity and ascended into the afterlife to sit in judgment of humans under the head god Ra and his father Osiris.

Even if you don't believe in God and miracles QM says resurrection is possible probabilistically. So science says you are wrong.

In addition science doesn't say supernatural events do t happen. Only that they haven't within the domain of observation.

So we have two scientific reasons to reject the impossibility of miracles claim.

Same thing with the soul. Science doesn't say souls don't exist. Maybe you can clarify why you think so. There's certainly no evidence linking belief in souls wholly with fear of finitude.

Likewise with ascension. Perhaps the Horus stories do indeed exist (which is doubtful based on what I've read), but can you prove Jesus was borrowed from Horus?

You are not the only fan of a comic book that stupidly attempts to attack science then tries to co opt it when called out on bullshit.

If QM meant everything was true by default, then as you read this right now, Angelina Jolie is giving me a blowjob while I am driving a Lamborghini. What? Absurd you say? NO FUCKING SHIT

But yet men popping out of dirt and women popping out of ribs and magic babies who go on to commit fake suicides like Hinkley trying to convince Jody Foster he loves her, that is hunky dory because of an old book of FUCKING MYTH!

Now, none of us are out to ask government to ban you from claiming that bullshit, but I will respond to it the same as if you claimed the Yankees won the Superbowl.

..............whenever somebody says something terminally silly in a conversation like this, I place a little mental bet as to how long it will take for the word "quantum" to fall from their lips.

(December 25, 2015 at 5:07 pm)Delicate Wrote: As for the visions, that interpretation doesn't make sense. Are your saying it's a mass hallucination

Quantum mechanics says it's possible, right?

(December 25, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 25, 2015 at 5:07 pm)Delicate Wrote: People usually don't rise from the dead. That's consistent with what Christians believe.

We just don't believe it's impossible. And by the way, quantum mechanics says the same thing.

As for the visions, that interpretation doesn't make sense. Are your saying it's a mass hallucination

You have no evidence that there was a "mass" to begin with.  Large numbers of individuals may have claimed to have "seen" the postmortem Jesus at the same time, and later on, simply combined and embellished their experiences after that.  The so-called "Miracle of the Sun" is an example of this; disparate accounts of individuals who claimed to have seen the Sun "dance" in the sky, while others claimed to have seen nothing at all, while others still vehemently denied that anything at all happened.  And yet, "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17) speaks volumes as to the fact that nothing at all happened in the case of Jesus.  After all, if Jesus truly rose from the dead then there should have been no doubts whatsoever as to that "fact".

Unlike some others here I appreciate the concrete attempts to explain away the resurrection.

Many others on this forum cannot provide anything of the sort. You're already head and shoulders above the rest here in terms of intelligence.

But I'm not sure about your case yet. How do you explain mass hallucinations happening at the same time? Even people who take drugs together don't have the same shared experience.

The case about the sun is intriguing but unlike the sun, Jesus was purported to go around in very close proximity to people and for long periods of time. He wasn't at a distance or subject to visual distortions like the sun is relative to us.

Not to mention the mention of doubting suggests this event was recorded with history in mind, including embarrassing details that would have otherwise been left out of this was propaganda.

Not to mention doubting Thomas who ended up touching Jesus' wounds and believing.

Finally you suggest there should be no doubts. But I think it's always possible to doubt. Passers-by who saw Jesus in passing didn't have the chance to receive Jesus closely. Even if they did see the actual resurrected Jesus, on such a passing basis doubt is understandable.

So while I admire your attempt I think your account is quite weak due to the issues raised.

While I think one might be rational in not believing, if we concede there is no a priori impossibility of miracles established, believing in the resurrection given God's existence seems not terribly problematic one the anti miracle bias if dealt with.

(December 26, 2015 at 6:10 am)Delicate Wrote:

(December 25, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Jehanne Wrote: You have no evidence that there was a "mass" to begin with.  Large numbers of individuals may have claimed to have "seen" the postmortem Jesus at the same time, and later on, simply combined and embellished their experiences after that.  The so-called "Miracle of the Sun" is an example of this; disparate accounts of individuals who claimed to have seen the Sun "dance" in the sky, while others claimed to have seen nothing at all, while others still vehemently denied that anything at all happened.  And yet, "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17) speaks volumes as to the fact that nothing at all happened in the case of Jesus.  After all, if Jesus truly rose from the dead then there should have been no doubts whatsoever as to that "fact".

Unlike some others here I appreciate the concrete attempts to explain away the resurrection.

Many others on this forum cannot provide anything of the sort. You're already head and shoulders above the rest here in terms of intelligence.

But I'm not sure about your case yet. How do you explain mass hallucinations happening at the same time? Even people who take drugs together don't have the same shared experience.

The case about the sun is intriguing but unlike the sun, Jesus was purported to go around in very close proximity to people and for long periods of time. He wasn't at a distance or subject to visual distortions like the sun is relative to us.

Not to mention the mention of doubting suggests this event was recorded with history in mind, including embarrassing details that would have otherwise been left out of this was propaganda.

Not to mention doubting Thomas who ended up touching Jesus' wounds and believing.

Finally you suggest there should be no doubts. But I think it's always possible to doubt. Passers-by who saw Jesus in passing didn't have the chance to receive Jesus closely. Even if they did see the actual resurrected Jesus, on such a passing basis doubt is understandable.

So while I admire your attempt I think your account is quite weak due to the issues raised.

While I think one might be rational in not believing, if we concede there is no a priori impossibility of miracles established, believing in the resurrection given God's existence seems not terribly problematic one the anti miracle bias if dealt with.

We did. It is a myth. It never happened. You could claim Yoda is real it would be the same fucking thing. Nobody survives that kind of torture, dies and comes back as the fictional story intends the reader to believe. You are not going to peddle your superstition here.

(December 26, 2015 at 6:10 am)Delicate Wrote: So while I admire your attempt I think your account is quite weak due to the issues raised.

While I think one might be rational in not believing, if we concede there is no a priori impossibility of miracles established, believing in the resurrection given God's existence seems not terribly problematic one the anti miracle bias if dealt with.

One could make the same claim regarding the so-called Miracle of Calanda:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda

With this supposed "miracle", we have "people, places, and things," and with respect to the latter category, documentation.  And, yet, few, if any, Christian evangelicals are believers.  Belief in Jesus' bodily resurrection is predicated upon a whole host of assumptions (historical reliability of the Gospels & Epistles, their unembellished transmission down through the centuries, etc.)  With such a "standard", one might as well believe the 1500 or so individuals who've claimed to have been abducted by aliens, psychic readers, or those who've claimed to have had direct experiences with the so-called paranormal.  If we can say anything about the so-called "resurrection" of Jesus, it is that it is not unique.  Now, ask yourself, do you believe in this:

Quote:The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:52-53)

So, not only did Jesus supposedly rise from the dead, others did as well!  We are talking not about one resurrection here but "many", and yet, no one, other than the "believers" noticed any of this.  Life went on in the Roman Empire as before, and the reaction of the Empire was not terribly significant, was it?  (In fact, there was no reaction of the Roman authorities.)  Of course, many of those 1st-century Christians believed that the World was flat, and that was the World in which they lived in.  Only later on, as more intellectually-minded individuals began to embrace Christianity, did the idea of a spherical Earth enter into Christian theology and doctrine.

(December 26, 2015 at 4:33 am)Rhythm Wrote: ..............whenever somebody says something terminally silly in a conversation like this, I place a little mental bet as to how long it will take for the word "quantum" to fall from their lips.

Either that or "Deepak", "Chopra", "astrology" "paranormal", "western medicine", "homeopathy" or "dianetics".

(December 26, 2015 at 9:54 am)Evie Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 4:33 am)Rhythm Wrote: ..............whenever somebody says something terminally silly in a conversation like this, I place a little mental bet as to how long it will take for the word "quantum" to fall from their lips.

Either that or "Deepak", "Chopra", "astrology" "paranormal", "western medicine", "homeopathy" or "dianetics".

Quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory; for starters, it represents particles as being mathematical points (having zero dimensions).  As a physical theory, it has been amazingly successful in its predictive ability.  As a "tool" for metaphysical justification of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, it is complete bullshit.  No quantum theorist would apply it in such a manner, nor have any attempted to do so, except, perhaps, for a handful of cranks.

(December 26, 2015 at 11:15 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 9:54 am)Evie Wrote: Either that or "Deepak", "Chopra", "astrology" "paranormal", "western medicine", "homeopathy" or "dianetics".

Quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory; for starters, it represents particles as being mathematical points (having zero dimensions).  As a physical theory, it has been amazingly successful in its predictive ability.  As a "tool" for metaphysical justification of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, it is complete bullshit.  No quantum theorist would apply it in such a manner, nor have any attempted to do so, except, perhaps, for a handful of cranks.

Incomplete does not mean completely useless. It has very practical applications as a science. But even with being incomplete it is not a bronze age comic book, and no it does not justify "anything goes by default". And it still does not justify one god claim over another. On top of Hawking saying "A God is not required".

Don't feed religion with talk like this. They'll twist the word "incomplete" as "AH HA SO YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.....Therefore my deity did it!"

Don't take that as a demand, just advise because we also have to deal with it when they put stupid definitions on words like "Law" and "theory". Just saying.

(December 26, 2015 at 3:59 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 11:15 am)Jehanne Wrote: Quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory; for starters, it represents particles as being mathematical points (having zero dimensions).  As a physical theory, it has been amazingly successful in its predictive ability.  As a "tool" for metaphysical justification of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, it is complete bullshit.  No quantum theorist would apply it in such a manner, nor have any attempted to do so, except, perhaps, for a handful of cranks.

Incomplete does not mean completely useless. It has very practical applications as a science. But even with being incomplete it is not a bronze age comic book, and no it does not justify "anything goes by default". And it still does not justify one god claim over another. On top of Hawking saying "A God is not required".

Don't feed religion with talk like this. They'll twist the word "incomplete" as "AH HA SO YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.....Therefore my deity did it!"

Don't take that as a demand, just advise because we also have to deal with it when they put stupid definitions on words like "Law" and "theory". Just saying.

Even if Many-Worlds Interpretation turns out to be true, Jesus still would not be the God of the whole cosmos.