Maths is a tool you can use in applying science. Maths isn't science. It is entirely abstract. Maths can't produce any results about reality on its own without using evidence at some point. The evidence may be really simple in some cases, of course.

But math, all on its own, produces knowledge.

Not knowledge about reality. Knowledge about abstract concepts, which may or may not have anything to do with reality.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. If "other methods" produce reliable results in gaining knowledge about reality, they would be science. By definition. You can't just say they do what science does but aren't science.

(December 26, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Delicate Wrote: But math, all on its own, produces knowledge.

Math is not a religion. Math is a language we use to denote counts of objects or to do calculations.

One orange

Uno orange

Ichi orange


Now that abstract still is universal. The 1 denoting 1 orange.  The abstract of religion isn't simply metaphor nor is it ability to self correct the same as the language of math. You screw up math you have the ability to correct it. Especially with peer review. Religion is not a good kind of abstract, it is political and tribal and while there certainly are empathetic moderates and liberals in religion, the idea itself has far too much of a problem holding back progress and only adapts to stay relevant. 

If you want abstracts that that teach morals but don't get political, fiction like 1984 and Star Trek and Harry Potter can teach the same things without being a religion or becoming political.


The language of math is universal, religion is not universal.

I have been witness to individuals referring to the most mundane things as religion. Especially, those who make the claim that sports is a religion.

(December 26, 2015 at 6:36 pm)robvalue Wrote: Not knowledge about reality. Knowledge about abstract concepts, which may or may not have anything to do with reality.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. If "other methods" produce reliable results in gaining knowledge about reality, they would be science. By definition. You can't just say they do what science does but aren't science.

Why think the concepts in question don't figure in our reality, such that knowledge of the concepts amounts to knowledge about reality?

(December 26, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Delicate Wrote: Why think the concepts in question don't figure in our reality, such that knowledge of the concepts amounts to knowledge about reality?

One can have a concept about that which is not real; i.e., how science fiction and fantasy novels are created. God is precisely that, the fantasy of man's desire for a readily available answer.

(December 26, 2015 at 7:11 pm)Kitan Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 7:07 pm)Delicate Wrote: Why think the concepts in question don't figure in our reality, such that knowledge of the concepts amounts to knowledge about reality?

One can have a concept about that which is not real; i.e., how science fiction and fantasy novels are created. God is precisely that, the fantasy of man's desire for a readily available answer.

The concept may refer to something that doesn't exist. But the concept itself exists.

The concept is thus a part of reality. It's just the referent of the concept isn't a part of reality.

So how is math a science?

(December 26, 2015 at 7:22 pm)Delicate Wrote: The concept may refer to something that doesn't exist. But the concept itself exists.

The concept is thus a part of reality. It's just the referent of the concept isn't a part of reality.

So how is math a science?

I honestly believe you are confused.

The concept exists in reality as fiction, but that in no way ascertains that the concept exists outside of fiction.

(December 26, 2015 at 7:24 pm)Kitan Wrote:

(December 26, 2015 at 7:22 pm)Delicate Wrote: The concept may refer to something that doesn't exist. But the concept itself exists.

The concept is thus a part of reality. It's just the referent of the concept isn't a part of reality.

So how is math a science?

I honestly believe you are confused.

The concept exists in reality as fiction, but that in no way ascertains that the concept exists outside of fiction.

I'll have to think about this further.