Yeah, "various reasons".... like demons.

(December 31, 2015 at 12:50 pm)Red_Wind Wrote:

(December 27, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Do you recognise the fundamental difference between proof and evidence?

I don't think he does :p

For OP:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...ific-proof

Particularly this bit:

Quote:Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science.  Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists.  The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof.  All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence.  Proofs are not the currency of science.

Food for thought.

(January 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Rhythm Wrote: Yeah, "various reasons".... like demons.

They are part of the reasons and it would not make sense without them, as far as the Shia-Sunni issue goes, because of converts. Therefore bias is not sufficient as an explanation for it would not explain the decision of converts nor would it explain the blindness to many of the proofs that even most Shias are unaware of. There is something sinister in this world that tries to keep people from realizing the truth of what Quran says regarding this, and the truth of what of many well established authentic hadiths say regarding this issue.

A logical proof alone would not suffice without evidence, but also, a logical proof of God that is both valid and based on sound premises has never been presented. One of those would be way more than theists have. They have hundreds of bad 'proofs' and not a single good one.

It wouldn't make sense without them, and doesn't make sense with them..or because of them.   That should tell you something, particularly given the OP Q..... You need to believe in evil fairies, in order to believe that the story is true.

That's absurd, Mystic. Imagine that I told you that the rising of the sun doesn't make sense without sun fairies. That for the sun to rise, sensibly, fairies are required. Imagine if I told you that elves were required for your laundry machine to work...that without elves, it could not sensibly wash clothes. You have presented the most idiotic explanation as the only possible explanation....for no reason other than to avoid any notion that this idea :gasp:....may be untrue. That people fail to realize the brilliance of your favorite version of your favorite book...because it simply isn't brilliant, no evil fairies required or present.

I assure you, people can manage to disagree with you in the absence of demonic assistance. It is well beyond foolish to claim otherwise. Your insistence upon this is an insult to every poster whose responded to you, and to your own faith.

(December 25, 2015 at 11:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: A lot of people argue on the lines of the following:

1. If there were proofs of a God, then everyone would believe in God.
2. Some people don't believe in God.
3. Therefore there aren't any proofs of God.

A lot of people argue similarly on the lines of the following (which is similar but not exactly the same):

1. If people were presented with proofs of God, they would believe in God.
2. Some don't believe in God.
3. Therefore they weren't presented with proofs of God.

I would say for these two arguments to be true. The following would have to be true as well. That for example, Sunnis would accept proofs that point to Shiism if they are conclusive, clear and decisive. However I believe such proofs exist. However people turn away from it. Even when a lot of people are presented evidence they turn away from it.

The human phenomenon as far as accepting truth goes, it seems, that we haven't over all reached a mass status where almost everyone is sincere towards the truth that if they were proven something they would believe.

One day we may get there - but till then - this sort of reasoning that people accept positive claims when it's proven to them seems rather naive of the situation humanity is in.

To be honest,  I'm not sure how people cannot see what they are and the signs of God in themselves, aside from not reflecting. But when people reflect, it should be obvious.

A lot of people here have reflected I believe - but - there is something else preventing them from believing. They see but then take their disbelief as proof of their blindness towards the light of God, to the extent they have become blind towards it despite it's clear indications and reminder.

You, like Christians, and Jews and Hindus mistake a history of claims as being "proofs".

Now go back to your post, and every time you use the word "God" in your case that would be "Allah", and replace it with "Vishnu" for example, and be intellectually brave and ask yourself if your own argument would convince you Hindus are right? 

Now you know you rightfully reject the claims of every other religion and their god claims. We are not treating your claim any differently than you do with the claims of others. We simply reject one more god claim than you do.

Again, and I cannot repeat this enough, and this applies to any Christian or Jew or Hindu ect ect ect. WE GET IT, we get that you like what you  believe, but it is simply not true. It was understandable back when humans didn't know any better that they wrote those things. But science has improved on human knowledge and we don't need those books. 

MK please please please, understand we are trying to help you, not hurt you, and we say the same things to Christians and Jews ect ect ect as well.

You really can live life fine without a religion. It is not the end of the world. Life is still worth living for the atheist. We simply want you to think without fear, just like we want all the worlds religions to think without fear. Life has some wonderful things in it, but those wonderful things, are not explained by old books of any religion, anymore than the bad things.

It really will be ok if you give up on it. You can still value life and enjoy it, we promise. The only difference is that you wont be bound by bad logic and fear. Free yourself from myth, you will feel much better.

How about defining God using words that don't immediately need defining themselves.

(January 2, 2016 at 10:48 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Rhythm Wrote: Yeah, "various reasons".... like demons.

They are part of the reasons and it would not make sense without them, as far as the Shia-Sunni issue goes, because of converts. Therefore bias is not sufficient as an explanation for it would not explain the decision of converts nor would it explain the blindness to many of the proofs that even most Shias are unaware of.

Yeah, this is complete poppycock. I've studied cognitive bias and what you speak of is well within its purview.

You're ignoring the perfectly good explanation because you don't know. Ignorance of the effects of bias =/= demons and dark forces.

(January 2, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 10:48 am)MysticKnight Wrote: They are part of the reasons and it would not make sense without them, as far as the Shia-Sunni issue goes, because of converts. Therefore bias is not sufficient as an explanation for it would not explain the decision of converts nor would it explain the blindness to many of the proofs that even most Shias are unaware of.

Yeah, this is complete poppycock.  I've studied cognitive bias and what you speak of is well within its purview.

You're ignoring the perfectly good explanation because you don't know.  Ignorance of the effects of bias =/= demons and dark forces.

 Ok a non-Muslims studies Islam. Decides to become Muslim. Why would he read the Quran but not see the clarification of this issue if it was clarified? What bias does he have towards Sunnism when he doesn't come from that sect?

How can confirmation bias play a role here? 

Let's even go further. A Shia has confirmation bias to see his sect is right? Why would many read the Quran but not see the clarification of this issue in many of it's instances if it was clarified in those instances?

Either the issue is not clarified in those verses or this something else then bias going on.

(January 2, 2016 at 11:09 am)robvalue Wrote: How about defining God using words that don't immediately need defining themselves.

In times of extreme stress, brain creates Agency in mind to preserve functionality of mind. If this hack is successful, a prophet appears; all god is is wording of the agency.