(January 25, 2016 at 2:47 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 2:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Different people sometimes ask the same questions that were already asked. Just because it's a different person doesn't mean I'm going to change my answers. So I am sorry u feel this way that u do towards my belief. But just as I can't change u, there is nothing u can say to change me as well

I feel sorry for you that you are so closed minded and so narcissistic about an old book of myth. What scares you so much that you feel the need to cling to an old book and claims of sky heros? I live my life fine without belief in fictional beings.

Now how selfish of you to think my rejection of your religion and god belief is a personal attack on you. You need to learn the difference between your rights, and the separate issue of having the ability to demonstrate what you claim is evidence based and credible beyond your own personal bias. 

You certainly by law in the secular west don't have to change your answers. Neither do Christians or Jews or Hindus. They have as much evidence for their claims as you do for yours.

The earth is 4 billion years old. The universe is 14 billion years old. Those are scientific facts not up for debate. Religion started in an age of scientific ignorance. It was understandable people made bad guesses and started religions as a result of their scientific ignorance, but we know better now.

You can make claims about your book and about your hero all you want but nobody is under any obligation by law to buy your arguments, and most certainly not under any obligation to refrain from telling you why your claims are wrong.

LEARN the difference between legal human rights, and the separate issue of being able to prove what you claim through an unbias neutral process, which you are NOT using. None of us here are treating you differently than any other person with a different book or different god claim. Get in line, take a number.

I agree with u my friend. It's called free will the God given right(my belief of course) to do as u wish in this temporary life we live now. Which also helps to determine what permanent life we will have in the Hereafter. I don't think ur attacking me personally. We are 2 adults sharing our differences in opinion about a matter. So just because u don't believe in what I do, I don't see it as ur attacking me personally. Vice versa I don't intend on attacking u personally when I don't follow ur belief. Now I have mentioned on several responses, so I'm not sure to exactly who, but I'll ask u this. First off how many different examples of a particular subject would u personally need to see in order to say to urself "This is more than just a coincidence, this is a fact"? Secondly how many different facts do u need b4 u believe it as true? And to answer ur question about what I fear, it is the wrath of Allah, and His punishment of Hellfire, which is very descriptive in the Qur'an, and also losing His guidance in my life. These a few things I fear about my Lord

(January 25, 2016 at 3:17 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 2:47 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I feel sorry for you that you are so closed minded and so narcissistic about an old book of myth. What scares you so much that you feel the need to cling to an old book and claims of sky heros? I live my life fine without belief in fictional beings.

Now how selfish of you to think my rejection of your religion and god belief is a personal attack on you. You need to learn the difference between your rights, and the separate issue of having the ability to demonstrate what you claim is evidence based and credible beyond your own personal bias. 

You certainly by law in the secular west don't have to change your answers. Neither do Christians or Jews or Hindus. They have as much evidence for their claims as you do for yours.

The earth is 4 billion years old. The universe is 14 billion years old. Those are scientific facts not up for debate. Religion started in an age of scientific ignorance. It was understandable people made bad guesses and started religions as a result of their scientific ignorance, but we know better now.

You can make claims about your book and about your hero all you want but nobody is under any obligation by law to buy your arguments, and most certainly not under any obligation to refrain from telling you why your claims are wrong.

LEARN the difference between legal human rights, and the separate issue of being able to prove what you claim through an unbias neutral process, which you are NOT using. None of us here are treating you differently than any other person with a different book or different god claim. Get in line, take a number.

I agree with u my friend. It's called free will the God given right(my belief of course) to do as u wish in this temporary life we live now. Which also helps to determine what permanent life we will have in the Hereafter. I don't think ur attacking me personally. We are 2 adults sharing our differences in opinion about a matter. So just because u don't believe in what I do, I don't see it as ur attacking me personally. Vice versa I don't intend on attacking u personally when I don't follow ur belief. Now I have mentioned on several responses, so I'm not sure to exactly who, but I'll ask u this. First off how many different examples of a particular subject would u personally need to see in order to say to urself "This is more than just a coincidence, this is a fact"? Secondly how many different facts do u need b4 u believe it as true?

Hello McFLY!

Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus ALL ALL ALL make the same arguments. I know you like what you believe. I also know you really want it to be true. I don't doubt your sincerity when you say you believe what you claim. I do doubt you really know what you do using bad logic in leading yourself to needlessly come to such bad conclusions.

"My Bible says"
"My Koran says"
"My Torah says"
"My Vedas say"
"My Dali Lama says"

"Christianity is popular"
"Islam is popular"
"Jewish is popular"
"Buddhism is popular"
"Hinduism is popular"

"I point to the bible for miracles"
"I point to the Koran for miracles"
"I point to Jewish scriptures for miracles"
"I point to Buddha for for miracles"
"I point to the Hindu Vedas for miracles"

"Jesus says we have free will"
"Allah says we have free will"
"Yahweh says we have free will"
"Buddha says we have free will"
"The Vedas say we have free will"

And they ALL like what they believe. Still not a matter of human rights. It is still a matter of EVIDENCE.  Which no human has ever produced about any religion or god claim.  7 billion humans make 100s of thousands of different god claims, and so what. If anyone had universal evidence they'd have a Nobel Prize in science and could beat everyone to the patent office.

I am NOT treating you any differently than I would any other person with a different religion or god claim. Get in line, take a number.

(January 25, 2016 at 3:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 3:17 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: I agree with u my friend. It's called free will the God given right(my belief of course) to do as u wish in this temporary life we live now. Which also helps to determine what permanent life we will have in the Hereafter. I don't think ur attacking me personally. We are 2 adults sharing our differences in opinion about a matter. So just because u don't believe in what I do, I don't see it as ur attacking me personally. Vice versa I don't intend on attacking u personally when I don't follow ur belief. Now I have mentioned on several responses, so I'm not sure to exactly who, but I'll ask u this. First off how many different examples of a particular subject would u personally need to see in order to say to urself "This is more than just a coincidence, this is a fact"? Secondly how many different facts do u need b4 u believe it as true?

Hello McFLY!

Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus ALL ALL ALL make the same arguments. I know you like what you believe. I also know you really want it to be true. I don't doubt your sincerity when you say you believe what you claim. I do doubt you really know what you do using bad logic in leading yourself to needlessly come to such bad conclusions.

"My Bible says"
"My Koran says"
"My Torah says"
"My Vedas say"
"My Dali Lama says"

"Christianity is popular"
"Islam is popular"
"Jewish is popular"
"Buddhism is popular"
"Hinduism is popular"

"I point to the bible for miracles"
"I point to the Koran for miracles"
"I point to Jewish scriptures for miracles"
"I point to Buddha for for miracles"
"I point to the Hindu Vedas for miracles"

"Jesus says we have free will"
"Allah says we have free will"
"Yahweh says we have free will"
"Buddha says we have free will"
"The Vedas say we have free will"

And they ALL like what they believe. Still not a matter of human rights. It is still a matter of EVIDENCE.  Which no human has ever produced about any religion or god claim.  7 billion humans make 100s of thousands of different god claims, and so what. If anyone had universal evidence they'd have a Nobel Prize in science and could beat everyone to the patent office.

I am NOT treating you any differently than I would any other person with a different religion or god claim. Get in line, take a number.

OK Tannen. Lol. I understand ur views on this but u haven't answered either of my questions. How many instances of a particular matter do u have to see in order to be a fact and not just a coincidence? Also how many facts have to be shown to u in order for u to believe it as true?

(January 25, 2016 at 4:14 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 3:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Hello McFLY!

Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus ALL ALL ALL make the same arguments. I know you like what you believe. I also know you really want it to be true. I don't doubt your sincerity when you say you believe what you claim. I do doubt you really know what you do using bad logic in leading yourself to needlessly come to such bad conclusions.

"My Bible says"
"My Koran says"
"My Torah says"
"My Vedas say"
"My Dali Lama says"

"Christianity is popular"
"Islam is popular"
"Jewish is popular"
"Buddhism is popular"
"Hinduism is popular"

"I point to the bible for miracles"
"I point to the Koran for miracles"
"I point to Jewish scriptures for miracles"
"I point to Buddha for for miracles"
"I point to the Hindu Vedas for miracles"

"Jesus says we have free will"
"Allah says we have free will"
"Yahweh says we have free will"
"Buddha says we have free will"
"The Vedas say we have free will"

And they ALL like what they believe. Still not a matter of human rights. It is still a matter of EVIDENCE.  Which no human has ever produced about any religion or god claim.  7 billion humans make 100s of thousands of different god claims, and so what. If anyone had universal evidence they'd have a Nobel Prize in science and could beat everyone to the patent office.

I am NOT treating you any differently than I would any other person with a different religion or god claim. Get in line, take a number.

OK Tannen. Lol. I understand ur views on this but u haven't answered either of my questions. How many instances of a particular matter do u have to see in order to be a fact and not just a coincidence? Also how many facts have to be shown to u in order for u to believe it as true?

Again, you liking an old book only means you like that old book. Calling it a fact only means you like believing it to be fact. So what, Christians and Jews and Hindus also find "facts" in their religions too.

"Facts" in a unbias universal neutral setting have NOTHING to do with personal bias. YOU are the one suffering from selection bias and sample rate error. Dont feel bad, all religions suffer from use of bad logic.


Good logic does not start with presuming what you personally like. Good logic works like this.

Collect data through observation=plug data into established formula with control groups= repeat for decent sample rate=write down your findings=hand your findings over to independent peers to see if they can replicate your data and method. If they can, you are onto something. If they cannot, then you need to check your work for errors and start over.

Religious logic IN ALL RELIGIONS is bad logic.

"I like what I believe=pick a book and deity= therefore I am right"

If you cannot check your personal bias at the door you are not being objective.

(January 25, 2016 at 9:39 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Well I've mentioned the numerous miracles of the Qur'an.

Mentioning something is not the same as showing it to be true. For example I can mention that I've been instrumental for Limerick winning all their nine All Ireland titles (7 hurling, two football) which if you check is an obvious untruth. Until you show evidence for these "miracles" and show that they cannot have a mundane explanation, your boast of quranic miracles is as truthful as my boast of sporting prowess.

Quote:But first off I know we as humans were created by someone who is obviously a higher being than we are.

No you don't, what you are doing is taking the unevidenced assertion of the quran as truth, while disregarding the masses of evidence which indicate otherwise.

Quote:So with just for example some of the astronomical knowledge of our universe, listed in the Qur'an. Whoever's words these are placed in a scripture in the 7th century, when telescopes, satellites, computers etc didn't yet exist, and these words describe exactly what is happening in our universe today, over 1,400 years later, which we can and have verified and confirmed as true due to our technology, This tells me that someone, who put these words together is the One who created us all. So He is the One, alone I worship.

But your problem here is that every "scientific fact predicted by the quran" has two problems before being able to pass a truth test. First of all, every single claim to this effect is a (1,400 year past due) post hoc explanation of those verses. They were not flagged as "scientific predicitons" until after scientists came along and discovered the things the verses were supposed to predict. If they were truly predictive then people would have said something along the lines "because of what the quran says we should expect to see (to pluck a random example which I don't think is actually in the quran) x amount of moons around Saturn" and then go out and find that the statement is true. You cannot find something to exist, and then go back and say "this old book predicted it" after the event. Second, like the various christian "prophecies" (e.g. Nostradamus, or for an Irish version, Malachy) the verses are worded so vaguely that you could almost point to any major event in the world and say "Mohammed predicted that". When a piece of literature is so vaguely worded that it can point to two mutually exclusive events, then it has no predictive power.

Quote:See Allah gives us free will to believe and accept His guidance or disbelieve and reject Him.

But if allah is all powerful as islam asserts, then he cannot give us free will, as to have other actors than allah with independent action means that he is not all powerful. So what is it all powerful with no free will, or powerless with free will?

Quote:But with His mercy He doesn't just say "believe in my word" He also gives us many examples that support and prove His word as true, that we as people can verify even further than people before our time.

[citation needed]

Quote:Same thing when telescopes and microscopes were invented before our time. People used these inventions and were able to see that whoever put the Qur'an into effect knew exactly what they were talking about. And in the 7th century, when no human had this knowledge, this word could only come from our creator Allah Almighty

As I've demonstrated above, this last bit is nothing more than grade a porcine excrement. Sheed your god is nothing more than the leavings of a pig.

(January 25, 2016 at 4:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 4:14 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: OK Tannen. Lol. I understand ur views on this but u haven't answered either of my questions. How many instances of a particular matter do u have to see in order to be a fact and not just a coincidence? Also how many facts have to be shown to u in order for u to believe it as true?

Again, you liking an old book only means you like that old book. Calling it a fact only means you like believing it to be fact. So what, Christians and Jews and Hindus also find "facts" in their religions too.

"Facts" in a unbias universal neutral setting have NOTHING to do with personal bias. YOU are the one suffering from selection bias and sample rate error. Dont feel bad, all religions suffer from use of bad logic.


Good logic does not start with presuming what you personally like. Good logic works like this.

Collect data through observation=plug data into established formula with control groups= repeat for decent sample rate=write down your findings=hand your findings over to independent peers to see if they can replicate your data and method. If they can, you are onto something. If they cannot, then you need to check your work for errors and start over.

Religious logic IN ALL RELIGIONS is bad logic.

"I like what I believe=pick a book and deity= therefore I am right"

If you cannot check your personal bias at the door you are not being objective.

I'm still waiting for your answer to my questions that ur avoiding

---

(January 25, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 9:39 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Well I've mentioned the numerous miracles of the Qur'an.

Mentioning something is not the same as showing it to be true. For example I can mention that I've been instrumental for Limerick winning all their nine All Ireland titles (7 hurling, two football) which if you check is an obvious untruth. Until you show evidence for these "miracles" and show that they cannot have a mundane explanation, your boast of quranic miracles is as truthful as my boast of sporting prowess.

Quote:But first off I know we as humans were created by someone who is obviously a higher being than we are.

No you don't, what you are doing is taking the unevidenced assertion of the quran as truth, while disregarding the masses of evidence which indicate otherwise.

Quote:So with just for example some of the astronomical knowledge of our universe, listed in the Qur'an. Whoever's words these are placed in a scripture in the 7th century, when telescopes, satellites, computers etc didn't yet exist, and these words describe exactly what is happening in our universe today, over 1,400 years later, which we can and have verified and confirmed as true due to our technology, This tells me that someone, who put these words together is the One who created us all. So He is the One, alone I worship.

But your problem here is that every "scientific fact predicted by the quran" has two problems before being able to pass a truth test. First of all, every single claim to this effect is a (1,400 year past due) post hoc explanation of those verses. They were not flagged as "scientific predicitons" until after scientists came along and discovered the things the verses were supposed to predict. If they were truly predictive then people would have said something along the lines "because of what the quran says we should expect to see (to pluck a random example which I don't think is actually in the quran) x amount of moons around Saturn" and then go out and find that the statement is true. You cannot find something to exist, and then go back and say "this old book predicted it" after the event. Second, like the various christian "prophecies" (e.g. Nostradamus, or for an Irish version, Malachy) the verses are worded so vaguely that you could almost point to any major event in the world and say "Mohammed predicted that". When a piece of literature is so vaguely worded that it can point to two mutually exclusive events, then it has no predictive power.

Quote:See Allah gives us free will to believe and accept His guidance or disbelieve and reject Him.

But if allah is all powerful as islam asserts, then he cannot give us free will, as to have other actors than allah with independent action means that he is not all powerful. So what is it all powerful with no free will, or powerless with free will?

Quote:But with His mercy He doesn't just say "believe in my word" He also gives us many examples that support and prove His word as true, that we as people can verify even further than people before our time.

[citation needed]

Quote:Same thing when telescopes and microscopes were invented before our time. People used these inventions and were able to see that whoever put the Qur'an into effect knew exactly what they were talking about. And in the 7th century, when no human had this knowledge, this word could only come from our creator Allah Almighty

As I've demonstrated above, this last bit is nothing more than grade a porcine excrement. Sheed your god is nothing more than the leavings of a pig.

Again I feel bad that u feel that way but that is ur prerogative. U have been blessed with free will to do what u wish. Just because God is Almighty doesn't mean He controls us. He gives us free will and knowledge to determine what is right and wrong. When we sin we seek His forgiveness and mend our conduct. But if we don't seek His forgiveness and continue to do wrong, He shows us He is Almighty and punishes. Where if we obey He shows He is Almighty and rewards us.

(January 25, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 4:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Again, you liking an old book only means you like that old book. Calling it a fact only means you like believing it to be fact. So what, Christians and Jews and Hindus also find "facts" in their religions too.

"Facts" in a unbias universal neutral setting have NOTHING to do with personal bias. YOU are the one suffering from selection bias and sample rate error. Dont feel bad, all religions suffer from use of bad logic.


Good logic does not start with presuming what you personally like. Good logic works like this.

Collect data through observation=plug data into established formula with control groups= repeat for decent sample rate=write down your findings=hand your findings over to independent peers to see if they can replicate your data and method. If they can, you are onto something. If they cannot, then you need to check your work for errors and start over.

Religious logic IN ALL RELIGIONS is bad logic.

"I like what I believe=pick a book and deity= therefore I am right"

If you cannot check your personal bias at the door you are not being objective.

I'm still waiting for your answer to my questions that ur avoiding

---

(January 25, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: Mentioning something is not the same as showing it to be true. For example I can mention that I've been instrumental for Limerick winning all their nine All Ireland titles (7 hurling, two football) which if you check is an obvious untruth. Until you show evidence for these "miracles" and show that they cannot have a mundane explanation, your boast of quranic miracles is as truthful as my boast of sporting prowess.


No you don't, what you are doing is taking the unevidenced assertion of the quran as truth, while disregarding the masses of evidence which indicate otherwise.


But your problem here is that every "scientific fact predicted by the quran" has two problems before being able to pass a truth test. First of all, every single claim to this effect is a (1,400 year past due) post hoc explanation of those verses. They were not flagged as "scientific predicitons" until after scientists came along and discovered the things the verses were supposed to predict. If they were truly predictive then people would have said something along the lines "because of what the quran says we should expect to see (to pluck a random example which I don't think is actually in the quran) x amount of moons around Saturn" and then go out and find that the statement is true. You cannot find something to exist, and then go back and say "this old book predicted it" after the event. Second, like the various christian "prophecies" (e.g. Nostradamus, or for an Irish version, Malachy) the verses are worded so vaguely that you could almost point to any major event in the world and say "Mohammed predicted that". When a piece of literature is so vaguely worded that it can point to two mutually exclusive events, then it has no predictive power.


But if allah is all powerful as islam asserts, then he cannot give us free will, as to have other actors than allah with independent action means that he is not all powerful. So what is it all powerful with no free will, or powerless with free will?


[citation needed]


As I've demonstrated above, this last bit is nothing more than grade a porcine excrement. Sheed your god is nothing more than the leavings of a pig.

Again I feel bad that u feel that way but that is ur prerogative. U have been blessed with free will to do what u wish. Just because God is Almighty doesn't mean He controls us. He gives us free will and knowledge to determine what is right and wrong. When we sin we seek His forgiveness and mend our conduct. But if we don't seek His forgiveness and continue to do wrong, He shows us He is Almighty and punishes. Where if we obey He shows He is Almighty and rewards us.

The word is "you" not "u". 

Blessed by who? Yahweh, Vishnu, Jesus, Buddha?

Just because the God of Jesus is Almighty.
Just because Yahweh is Almighty.
Just because Yoda is Almighty.

When we sin we seek Jesus's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Yahweh's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Dharma's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Buddha's forgiveness.

Thor makes lightening.
Poseidon causes hurricanes.

All you have is a book you like that someone sold you. Again, get in line, take a number.

(January 25, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: I'm still waiting for your answer to my questions that ur avoiding

---

Again I feel bad that u feel that way but that is ur prerogative. U have been blessed with free will to do what u wish. Just because God is Almighty doesn't mean He controls us. He gives us free will and knowledge to determine what is right and wrong. When we sin we seek His forgiveness and mend our conduct. But if we don't seek His forgiveness and continue to do wrong, He shows us He is Almighty and punishes. Where if we obey He shows He is Almighty and rewards us.

The word is "you" not "u". 

Blessed by who? Yahweh, Vishnu, Jesus, Buddha?

Just because the God of Jesus is Almighty.
Just because Yahweh is Almighty.
Just because Yoda is Almighty.

When we sin we seek Jesus's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Yahweh's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Dharma's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Buddha's forgiveness.

Thor makes lightening.
Poseidon causes hurricanes.

All you have is a book you like that someone sold you. Again, get in line, take a number.

Well I use u, ur and b4 so I don't have to type all the extra letters on this stupid phone of mine to get my point across. But I see u won't answer my questions so I won't ask them anymore until ur ready to answer

(January 25, 2016 at 7:11 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 6:56 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The word is "you" not "u". 

Blessed by who? Yahweh, Vishnu, Jesus, Buddha?

Just because the God of Jesus is Almighty.
Just because Yahweh is Almighty.
Just because Yoda is Almighty.

When we sin we seek Jesus's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Yahweh's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Dharma's forgiveness.
When we sin we seek Buddha's forgiveness.

Thor makes lightening.
Poseidon causes hurricanes.

All you have is a book you like that someone sold you. Again, get in line, take a number.

Well I use u, ur and b4 so I don't have to type all the extra letters on this stupid phone of mine to get my point across. But I see u won't answer my questions so I won't ask them anymore until ur ready to answer

Yes you do. I have a cell phone too. I can type "you" on it even gives me suggestions if I spell a word wrong. 

Look in all seriousness, I am a horrible speller myself. But I try and correct my mistakes when I get a red line under a word I look up the correct spelling, and or after I hit submit I go back and edit my mistake. Nobody should blame you for a innocent error, but when you type like that, it makes you look like a Kim Kardashian Honey Boo  Boo  Justin Beiber tweenager.

You not liking my answers is your problem not mine. 
.

If someone knew something that seemed incredible, or an event happened which I couldn't explain, I'd say "Wow, that's really interesting. Let's see if we can find out an explanation for this." Until such time as an explanation supported by evidence was found, I would file it under "unexplained".

No amount of "unexplained" reports combine to make a "magic" report or a "God" report. It is just an indication that we don't know everything. No one is claiming that we do.

Just like a hundred flawed arguments don't make a solid argument. A million anecdotes don't make one bit of hard data. A trillion coincidences don't establish your personal favourite magical explanation.

Try saying, "I don't know". It's a liberating phrase. Religion is cashing in repeatedly on people's discomfort with those three words.