(March 11, 2016 at 11:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I'm not placing restrictions on God; I'm saying God places them on himself. The Christian God values free will of humanity over trying to protect them from all forms of evil.

You've yet to explain the contradiction between the alleged omnipotence of this god and the alleged free will he has bequeathed us.

How is free will even possible under the eye of an omnipotent being? Can I decide to behave in a manner that violates his prescient knowledge? How can I surprise this god? If this god knows everything, he knows my every choice well before I am born. How can I choose to behave in a way he doesn't know beforehand without violating his attribute of omniscience?

... and the corollary to that is that if it doesn't surprise him, and if he doesn't take action to modify the results, how, exactly, is he not responsible?

Sorry, but this "free will" argument is, in the context of the claims made about the Judeo-Christian god, horseshit.

Yeah omni powers are just so theoretically unwieldy.  What do you want to bet the Catholic church eventually let them go?

It was not always thus. When Thomas Jefferson wrote that all men have the right to
“life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” he did not say, “At least that is my
opinion.” He declared it as an objective truth.

But, long ago, we achieved consensus on many basic moral questions. Cheating,
cowardice, and cruelty are wrong. As one pundit put it, “The Ten Commandments are not
the Ten Highly Tentative Suggestions.”

Yeah, fuck off http://christiananswers.net

Yes, it was my fault for stumbling across this little nugget!
I need to upgrade my anti malware software to include the new anti bullshit detection alogorithm.

(March 11, 2016 at 8:08 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 6:48 pm)IATIA Wrote: I do not see that. One could be happy to hear the first words of their child or see the first steps.  I cannot fathom where the non-existence of rape, murder and pillaging would affect that happiness.

Would it be the same kind of happiness though? I'm not necessarily saying happiness wouldn't exist, but without the opposite emotion to compare it to, its scope is reduced.

This relates back to something I said earlier. If God did prevent rape from happening in some way, this conversation would be "why doesn't God prevent murder", and if he prevented murder, it would be "why doesn't God prevent X, Y, Z", and at some point you'll be asking "why doesn't God prevent me from stubbing my toe?".

The reason suffering happens is due to the fall of mankind. The reason God does not prevent suffering is because it gives us perspective on what we have lost, and what we could hope to achieve in the afterlife.

A perfect Carpenter doesn't build a crooked cabinet. Imperfect man, as a creation, bespeaks an imperfect god.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: "Anything He doesn't like" means anything evil, though. And it also means doing it purposely with full knowledge and consent of the will, and with no remorse. That's the Catholic position anyway, not necessarily the position of every Christian denomination.

But it doesn't acknowledge how a person arrives at that state.  We know now how people end up that way-- abuse as children, neglect of parents, poverty, brain developmental issues, etc.  I could go to places in American ghettoes and say that just by being born into that environment, a person has a huge chance of going to hell, because he will HAVE to harden his heart to much evil in the world just to be tough enough to survive in that environment.

How many catholic priests have put young people into a life-long full-tilt, then felt bad about it later in life, begged forgiveness, and gone on to Heaven?  How many kids have had not only their bodies but their sense of self-determination (aka free will) robbed, and hardened their hearts because it's the only way they can get out of bed without having a nervous fucking breakdown?  If I had been raped as a child, I wouldn't be looking to open my heart to God's grace.  I'd be developing telephoto pictures in a darkroom in my basement, and stockpiling a collection of machine guns.  AND IT WOULDN'T BE MY FAULT.

This is my view of Catholicism.  It amounts to institutionalized victim-blaming.  Over and over and over, poor and underprivileged people die on the street in a state of stress and ongoing terror that you call hardness of heart.  And the rich, white people of privilege get to lie in death's bed, ponder their lives, and confess.  The victims go to Hell, and their abusers go to Heaven.  This is what the idea of the grace of God means to me.

Fuck that.

You're saying that before you even fully understand the Catholic's position. Culpability can be lessened for many reasons. A traumatic childhood or upbringing can be one of them.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:38 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 11:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I personally have never even heard of this before. This is the first time I'm seeing it. Not saying there aren't Christians out there who believe some humans are children of the Devil, but this is definitely not mainstream Christianity.

Really???

Ok, must be difference experiences then as Christian.

Here's a verse in the Bible to illustrate my point:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...+John+3:10

Really, really. Have never heard of that as a Christian belief among anyone before you mentioned it in your post.

(March 12, 2016 at 12:05 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 11:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As for your last question, that actually doesn't bother me. Over time, we come to learn more and understand more, through what we believe to be the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So do those Catholics of the past, some of whom did things which are evil by our standards, go to Heaven or not?  Is Heaven going to be filled with generations of Catholics who toed the party line?  Are you some day going to be sharing God's grace with witch hunters, for example?

I have no idea. The only people whom we claim to know the fate of are Saints - who we believe are in Heaven. Other than that, we don't know who is in the state of Hell or Heaven, since we cannot know what was in a person's heart.

(March 12, 2016 at 2:33 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You're saying that before you even fully understand the Catholic's position. Culpability can be lessened for many reasons. A traumatic childhood or upbringing can be one of them.

Show me a criminal that doesn't have something bad in his past, his DNA, or his brain chemistry that mediates his behavior. Even where one plans an evil act for months, why is it that some people do this, and others do not? It is because their natures, which they did not originate, and whose environmental influences they did not dictate, led them to be that kind of person.

Science can now show that things like brain development affect mood and behavior. So people who commit acts you consider "evil" are actually dysfunctional: they have an inability to feel properly, to control behaviors properly, to understand consequences properly, etc. And their reward for having to suffer through a life of dysfunction? God (who either caused or at least allowed the dysfunction) either turns his back on them, or causes them to suffer for all eternity.

If culpability can be lessened for a predisposition to do evil, than all evil-doers must go to Heaven, since none of them are responsible for their predispositions.

In my opinion, God should go to Hell, because he's the only sentient entity that we might argue cannot be intrinsically dyfunctional, and who can therefore be considered fully culpable for the many evils he either commits or allows to be committed.

(March 12, 2016 at 2:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 12:05 am)bennyboy Wrote: So do those Catholics of the past, some of whom did things which are evil by our standards, go to Heaven or not?  Is Heaven going to be filled with generations of Catholics who toed the party line?  Are you some day going to be sharing God's grace with witch hunters, for example?

I have no idea. The only people whom we claim to know the fate of are Saints - who we believe are in Heaven. Other than that, we don't know who is in the state of Hell or Heaven, since we cannot know what was in a person's heart.

That's a cop out.  Let's say a witch-hunter considered himself a good and loving Christian, and that he took his witch-interviewing duties seriously.  Let's say that in his love, he followed the proscribed methods of turning a witch to confession and to salvation (talking about torture, here).  He was in a state of total peace, confident because of papal decrees or agreements made at church, that he was doing the work of God.

Perfectly calm mind and openly peaceful heart, committing torture.

Heaven or not?  Because by your statements, it would seem that HE is going to Heaven, and the "witch," who would be a terrified, lonely old woman, cast out of society, blamed and tortured, and then told she must share the religious beliefs of her attackers, and "confess" sins she never committed, would be in the wrong mental condition to be allowed into Heaven.

I mean, we can trot out examples post after post until the cows come home, and you can keep saying "I don't know, I don't know." But if you don't know anything, then from whence comes your belief?

See, here's my problem with you (as I've already mentioned): you seem to be a generally good person, and I think you are projecting your OWN goodness onto the universe, and onto your God idea. But you cannot produce logical reasons for your beliefs, nor evidence that they correct, nor good reasons for believing a good God exists, nor evidence for beliefing a good God exists.

So why the heck to you hold the beliefs that you do? There's no reason for it that I can see except that you are a member of a Catholic culture.

You've done a good job Tibs

Unfortunately, as you well know, it's about connecting dots up on two different pieces of paper. So the fallacies are unavoidable. It's just about how well you hide them.

Practicing the opposite position is good, but I can't bring myself to write arguments I know are fallacious. I can't bring myself to bury the fallacy. That's just me. I can see how it gives an insight into trying to defend the indefensible (religious apologetics).

Theists so often trip up by assuming that the rules as they apply now must apply to any other potential scenario. I don't know if that's due to a lack of imagination, lack of understanding or just plain convenience.

Forget rapes, God watches while people kill each other. If that isn't the biggest violation of their free will, I don't know what is. It's more important to allow the murderer autonomy than to let the victim ever have any autonomy, ever again.

(March 12, 2016 at 2:51 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 2:33 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You're saying that before you even fully understand the Catholic's position. Culpability can be lessened for many reasons. A traumatic childhood or upbringing can be one of them.

Show me a criminal that doesn't have something bad in his past, his DNA, or his brain chemistry that mediates his behavior.  Even where one plans an evil act for months, why is it that some people do this, and others do not?  It is because their natures, which they did not originate, and whose environmental influences they did not dictate, led them to be that kind of person.

Science can now show that things like brain development affect mood and behavior.  So people who commit acts you consider "evil" are actually dysfunctional: they have an inability to feel properly, to control behaviors properly, to understand consequences properly, etc.  And their reward for having to suffer through a life of dysfunction?  God (who either caused or at least allowed the dysfunction) either turns his back on them, or causes them to suffer for all eternity.

If culpability can be lessened for a predisposition to do evil, than all evil-doers must go to Heaven, since none of them are responsible for their predispositions.

In my opinion, God should go to Hell, because he's the only sentient entity that we might argue cannot be intrinsically dyfunctional, and who can therefore be considered fully culpable for the many evils he either commits or allows to be committed.

I said it can be lessened. I didn't say it was entirely mitigated, all the time, for every case. Every case is different. Furthermore, a predisposition to do bad things doesn't mean a person will do bad things. There are many people who were abused and neglected as children and never grow up to rape and kill others. It's not automatic, and people still have a choice. What happened to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc after they die is still a mystery to us though, as it's not our place to judge who's in Hell.