(March 17, 2016 at 10:15 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 12:54 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

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Yes, I read that drivel. It's the same bullshit about atheists on which we've corrected you numerous times. It's absolutely astounding to me that you keep repeating the same drivel despite such corrections. You're either learning-disabled or just too dismissive of our shared humanity to actually listen to us.

And, when you previously posted that same horse-hockey about homosexuality being such a bad thing in our society, I pointed you to the finding of the US Supreme Court, where they noted that the active repression of homosexual behavior is NOT "deeply rooted in American society and tradition", but a fairly recent phenomenon. Of course, homosexual people often were murdered by Christians in the name of Gawd (thus the term "faggot", a bundle of sticks, to remind them that the could be burned alive), but I hardly count that as any sort of moral behavior. 

As for abortion, I challenge you to find a mention of it outside proto-feminist literature, pre-1940. It, too, was not something that was considered morally reprobate on the level you're describing. These have become causes celebre only in relatively recent times.

What you are really whining about is not the loss of morality but the loss of Christian privilege, in which your cult once had the power to (locally, and occasionally via legislation) push its wacko religious ideologies onto others, and now you lament that atheists can freely speak out about not accepting your bullshit, and you can't oppress us for it or continue to use government money/power to promote your cult's message.

Finally, and most importantly, your post #652 doesn't even remotely address what I raised, namely the fact that human empathy is a better marker for the treatment of one another than any ideology-- every one of the historical examples you named in that list, as-always trying to tie us to Hitler per your usual fascination, is an ideology that was able to override our natural human empathy and play upon our tribalism and xenophobia in order to turn some out-group into The Dangerous Other™ who needed to be stopped/destroyed. Christianity most certainly belongs on that list of ideologies capable of overriding our human empathy, as do Nazi Fascism and Marxist "we claim to be communist but aren't really" dictatorships.

In other words, you've won the argument for us by acknowledging that human empathy-based morality is the standard, the standard from which we must be corrupted by ideology in order to sink to the levels of depravity you described. You simply think that your Christian ideology is The Only Right One™ out of the many, despite the reams of evidence that it causes people to do harm as a result of that corruption. To us, you're just one out of the many ideologies against which skeptical thinking may inoculate people before they fall victim to such ideologies that can dehumanize others and remove us from our empathy-based morality.

As I said before, your Jesus guy figured it out... even if he was just paraphrasing the Golden Rule from others who figured it out before him.

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Oh glob..

I thought you were one of the 'smart ones.' You can seriously be reading my posts and still retain such a large content diffency unless you are just scanning for keywords to build a strawman/what you think I am trying to argue from just a quick skim read.

So let me explain my first paragraph which is what in post  652 that renders your whole last post and the one before it completely moot.

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Please take time to read this again:
Ah!! There in lies the problem. You think I am suggesting we exchange one set of principles for another.

I'm not. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What I am saying is we need an unchanging standard, so that we can always Identify sin/Know wrong, so then we always have the option to repent of it, and find redemption. What self righteousness does, is lower the bar so rather than push one to repentance.. we look to justify sin rather than turn from it.

Strict adherence is not the key. repentance is, we can't/won't ever repent if we feel justified in sin. If we learn to repent we will also learn to find the freedom from the 'strict adherence of the law' that "moral people" have to have inorder to maintain their 'morality.' This 'strict adherence that bind moral people to the law (and subsequently why they tend to be constantly changing the law to fit their sinful appetites) is the total opposite of what Christ offers. Christ is offering righteousness Despite one's sins not because of our perceived 'righteousness.'

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You last two posts just like all the posts of Thena Are under the assumption that I am trying to push Christian 'morals' over pop morality/empathy based morals.

Understand 'smart guy' I'm not. As you pointed out All morals are corrupt, unchecked 'christian morals' are what incited the Dark ages, witch burnings, the inquisition, whatever you said about 'fags.' All the 'bad stuff' is a direct result of taking 1/2 of what God has done and then trying to make it fit a 'moral' standard of living.

What I am saying is all 'morality' is bad, no matter who sponcers it or how it is founded. because all 'morality' is based on a righteousness (in this case a gold standard of good) other than God's. God's standard of righteousness can be found in his completed law. All of the Law of the OT, along with the extension of the law Jesus himself added to include thought. Which is Impossible for any of us to follow. Which is why God provided atonement. atonement allows us grace from the sins we being slaves to sin can not help but to commit. The only catch being we have to repent, before we can accept atonement that gives us grace/freedom from the law.

However we can not repent if our 'morality' says it is ok to commit certain sins. That is the only reason we need God's standard. so we know when to repent/turn from our sin. It is not meant for us to try and live by to define our 'morality/worthiness' for heaven. God's law is only to show our sin. So again we can repent of it and be free from trying to live a 'moral' life. meaning a life defined by our actions.

So you see while you are busy trying to define who you are by how you live your life/what deed your 'morality' tells you to do or not do. A Christian's 'righteousness' is found completely separate and apart from the things he does or does not do. My 'righteousness' is defined by the life Christ lived, not the one I live. for I put on his 'morality/righteousness' and die to my own when I accepted the atonement He offered me.. That means I am free from the laws of man and God as a means to define my own righteousness.

So again you whole argument is moot as I am not trying to replace one morality with another as you seem to think. I am trying to free you from following any version of morality to define who you are before God.

(March 17, 2016 at 10:33 am)drfuzzy Wrote: Can anyone make ANY sense out of that yammering stream-of-consciousness self-contradictory wall of text that I never should have bothered to read?  So, Drippy, a Christian's "righteousness" has nothing to do with his actions? Really? Well, actually I can believe that.  I have met a few preachers that obviously believed as you do: they raped children all week, then talked to their imaginary friend the ceiling, who told them everything was ok, and they were good to go out on Sunday morning and tell everybody in the pews that if they weren't good xtians they were gonna burn in hell forever.  Riiight.  
   Not that I believe you're capable, but could you maybe distill that drivel above into one LOGICAL paragraph - in plain English?

(March 17, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 10:33 am)drfuzzy Wrote: Can anyone make ANY sense out of that yammering stream-of-consciousness self-contradictory wall of text that I never should have bothered to read?  So, Drippy, a Christian's "righteousness" has nothing to do with his actions? Really? Well, actually I can believe that.  I have met a few preachers that obviously believed as you do: they raped children all week, then talked to their imaginary friend the ceiling, who told them everything was ok, and they were good to go out on Sunday morning and tell everybody in the pews that if they weren't good xtians they were gonna burn in hell forever.  Riiight.  
   Not that I believe you're capable, but could you maybe distill that drivel above into one LOGICAL paragraph - in plain English?

I will break it down into sections. let me know which section you are having trouble understanding

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1)God set an impossible standard. (the law) Jesus extended that standard to include thought.(mat 5) So now we have an impossible standard squared to earn righteousness (the right to goto heaven) by our works.

2)God knowing Heaven would be empty, then provided a way to obtain righteousness (the right to goto heaven) apart from following the law/Earning righteousness through our actions.

3) This alternative is call atonement. Atonement can not be earned by what we do, we must accept it on God's terms.
3a.)The only terms are to accept Christ who died to provide this atonement (respect the one who paid for this atonement, with his own blood.)
3b.) Repent or turn your heart from loving sin (not altogether stop sinning, but simply learn to hate it.)
3c.) forgive others and He has forgiven you.

4) which brings us back to the law. We need the law in it's completed form to simply identify sin, so we can repent of it.
4a.)All Morality justifies sin. or takes and hides the fact that sin is present in certain actions, so 'we' can believe that we are still 'good people' by the right of our actions/deeds, when in fact we are not.
4b) If we justify our sin, we will never repent of it. For instance if pop morality says Homosexuality is ok or if infanticide/abortion is ok, and in your mind you are still a 'good person' because you have lived with in the values of 'morality' then we/you will not ever repent/turn from our sin.

5)God knows we are all slaves to sin and will never stop sinning (Romans 6,7 and chapter8 detail all of this) which is again why He provided atonement.

6) God is forgiving of all sin, but will not abide Evil.
6a)Romans 1 and 2 define sin and evil.
6b) Evil is love for sin or the justification of sin. It has nothing to do with severity of sin before God. an Evil person before God could be a little old lady who loves and justifies her gossip. While we have little to no control over sin God wants us to turn from evil.
6c) Morality in all forms (Christian or pop) is the justification of sin, in essence All Morality is a form of evil or it protects societal accepted evil. Which again keeps us from repentance.

7) that is why we still have the law. Not to live by as a moral standard but to help us identify sin and keep us from evil.

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Again I tried to break it all down just tell me which numbered section you are having trouble with.

(March 14, 2016 at 3:48 pm)Drich Wrote:

Quote:The morality of mere mortals is all there is.

I've talked to a lot of 'Atheist' and what I found is that most can't believe in God, because they've tested the mold/perception they think God comes in and their idea of God failed. Or better yet if they 'kill the idea of God' then they do not have to live the strict adherence of Life, they think is necessary to be a follower of God. The problem with both types of 'atheist' is that their judgement of God both depend on God fitting in this tiny little box in their perceived/limited understanding. Very few if any of you has considered that God may exist outside the confines of what you understand to be God, or What it means to be Holy. You need God to be a tyrant in order to live in your perceived "freedoms."

What if you are wrong and have it completely backwards? What if your perception of "freedom" are indeed chains, and what you think God is chaining you to is actually true freedom?

To you which person is truly free, and which is not? The person who is forced to think and act a certain way to define their 'morality?' by society's rules? or the person who Righteousness is not tied to the Law, but to the Righteousness of Christ by the atonement He offers?

Again the Law is to show us where sin is in our lives. It is not meant as a measure to live by. It is meant to point us to repentance, and we can not repent if we do not accept our sin/Have an absolute standard to live by.

Morality is the opposite. justifies sin which leads to unrepentance. Which is why we need that absolute standard. Not to force strict adherence, but to identify and repent of sin. With this also comes the added bonus ofnot defining our 'morality' by what society says do or do not do..

(March 17, 2016 at 12:13 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Drich Wrote: I will break it down into sections. let me know which section you are having trouble understanding

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1)God set an impossible standard. (the law) Jesus extended that standard to include thought.(mat 5) So now we have an impossible standard squared to earn righteousness (the right to goto heaven) by our works.

2)God knowing Heaven would be empty, then provided a way to obtain righteousness (the right to goto heaven) apart from following the law/Earning righteousness through our actions.

3) This alternative is call atonement. Atonement can not be earned by what we do, we must accept it on God's terms.
3a.)The only terms are to accept Christ who died to provide this atonement (respect the one who paid for this atonement, with his own blood.)
3b.) Repent or turn your heart from loving sin (not altogether stop sinning, but simply learn to hate it.)
3c.) forgive others and He has forgiven you.

4) which brings us back to the law. We need the law in it's completed form to simply identify sin, so we can repent of it.
4a.)All Morality justifies sin. or takes and hides the fact that sin is present in certain actions, so 'we' can believe that we are still 'good people' by the right of our actions/deeds, when in fact we are not.
4b) If we justify our sin, we will never repent of it. For instance if pop morality says Homosexuality is ok or if infanticide/abortion is ok, and in your mind you are still a 'good person' because you have lived with in the values of 'morality' then we/you will not ever repent/turn from our sin.

5)God knows we are all slaves to sin and will never stop sinning (Romans 6,7 and chapter8 detail all of this) which is again why He provided atonement.

6) God is forgiving of all sin, but will not abide Evil.
6a)Romans 1 and 2 define sin and evil.
6b) Evil is love for sin or the justification of sin. It has nothing to do with severity of sin before God. an Evil person before God could be a little old lady who loves and justifies her gossip. While we have little to no control over sin God wants us to turn from evil.
6c) Morality in all forms (Christian or pop) is the justification of sin, in essence All Morality is a form of evil or it protects societal accepted evil. Which again keeps us from repentance.

7) that is why we still have the law. Not to live by as a moral standard but to help us identify sin and keep us from evil.

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Again I tried to break it all down just tell me which numbered section you are having trouble with.

Oh, now THAT's piece-of-cake easy!!  Thanks Drippy-Doodle!  Aside from those moronic 7 but actually 15 idiotic statements you spewed onto the thread, it boils down to this:  I can't figure out why you think your imaginary friend exists, and why you actually bother to quote that hideous evil book of fairy tales you worship and jack off into.  And I can't for the life of me imagine WHY you would think any other living being would need to be insulted by telling them about your harvey-gawd and its wholly babble.

(March 17, 2016 at 12:14 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(March 14, 2016 at 3:48 pm)Drich Wrote: I've talked to a lot of 'Atheist' and what I found is that most can't believe in God, because they've tested the mold/perception they think God comes in and their idea of God failed. Or better yet if they 'kill the idea of God' then they do not have to live the strict adherence of Life, they think is necessary to be a follower of God. The problem with both types of 'atheist' is that their judgement of God both depend on God fitting in this tiny little box in their perceived/limited understanding. Very few if any of you has considered that God may exist outside the confines of what you understand to be God, or What it means to be Holy. You need God to be a tyrant in order to live in your perceived "freedoms."

What if you are wrong and have it completely backwards? What if your perception of "freedom" are indeed chains, and what you think God is chaining you to is actually true freedom?

To you which person is truly free, and which is not? The person who is forced to think and act a certain way to define their 'morality?' by society's rules? or the person who Righteousness is not tied to the Law, but to the Righteousness of Christ by the atonement He offers?

Again the Law is to show us where sin is in our lives. It is not meant as a measure to live by. It is meant to point us to repentance, and we can not repent if we do not accept our sin/Have an absolute standard to live by.

Morality is the opposite. justifies sin which leads to unrepentance. Which is why we need that absolute standard. Not to force strict adherence, but to identify and repent of sin. With this also comes the added bonus ofnot defining our 'morality' by what society says do or do not do..

I don't adhere to a moral code (derived from empathy) because I wish to be "free" from perceived confines and limitations imposed by "God". Rebellion against and/or rejection of said deity is not and has never been the motivation for "self-righteous"morality"; I simply wish to cause as little harm to others as possible.

It's not what I want, it's what is.That's all.

Quote:God and The Law, atonement, redemption; all flights of fancy to someone like me. Could any of these things offer betterment for mankind if they were real and true? Perhaps so.

Quote:But, why should that matter? Giving consideration to an impossible or highly implausible "solution" as an answer to a real word problem doesn't get anyone anywhere, as far as I'm concerned. 

Quote:You're baffled as to why atheists reject the offer of redemption, as I simply say there is no gift to reject. The entire premise of the OP requires putting the cart before the horse.

(March 17, 2016 at 1:13 pm)loganonekenobi Wrote: So far I have not seen real work as to a solution that would help us look beyond current moral thinking other than individual initiative. I can see nothing more here than the usual christian rhetoric that causes division among humanity by attempting to coerce everyone to a way of thinking that is not evidence based.

Do better or at least try.  You expect us to.

(March 17, 2016 at 12:58 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 12:13 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh, now THAT's piece-of-cake easy!!  Thanks Drippy-Doodle!  Aside from those moronic 7 but actually 15 idiotic statements you spewed onto the thread, it boils down to this:  I can't figure out why you think your imaginary friend exists, and why you actually bother to quote that hideous evil book of fairy tales you worship and jack off into.  And I can't for the life of me imagine WHY you would think any other living being would need to be insulted by telling them about your harvey-gawd and its wholly babble.

So you now understand? Is this safe to assume because you are now fishing for another way to dismiss me?

To answer your next question:
Because God manifests Himself via the Holy Spirit into the lives of His followers. I know God exists because i have received the gift of the Holy Spirit which has richly blessed and changed my life. God has given me opportunity and the ability to take advantage of opportunity that I otherwise would never receive. Not to mention God has opened my eyes, ears and Heart, through my personal efforts in study and in my life experience in such a way as to be able to fully understand His nature in such away as to be able to break down concepts like 'the gospel according to Paul/Book of romans' to just 15 statements that most wanting to understand can at least now grasp. Again all apart from outside 'religious' teaching or influence.

Why do I share? because I have been given this 'gift' and am required to use it to the glory of God.

(March 17, 2016 at 1:11 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 12:14 pm)Thena323 Wrote: I don't adhere to a moral code (derived from empathy) because I wish to be "free" from perceived confines and limitations imposed by "God". Rebellion against and/or rejection of said deity is not and has never been the motivation for "self-righteous"morality"; I simply wish to cause as little harm to others as possible.

It's not what I want, it's what is.That's all.

But again in that one act (do no harm) you are defining your self by your action. Likewise you will define and judge others by their own actions in accordance to your mandate. I purified your 'charge' to "do no harm" from "do as little harm as possible." to show you the self righteousness you built into your one guideline. In that you leave yourself an out (a way reason to do harm) if you feel justified. Which again put you at the center of your own righteousness bubble. Yours is truly a righteousness drivied from self Or rather your is truly self righteousness, as apposed to the righteousness people normally refer to based on popular culture. Without even the checks and balances of culture, someone like you has a far greater chance of following the path of the unibomber or serial killer than someone bound to soceity's ideas of right and wrong.