(March 27, 2016 at 10:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(March 27, 2016 at 7:33 pm)abaris Wrote: Oh, please, do tell. Where do 3 to 5 percent of any given population push their believes on the majority? What do you mean by close enough to large populations of muslims? The butt end of asstown? Or actually some country with a majority muslim population?

Oh yes, I can see the people converting to Islam. It's a clear an present danger, since it's so appealing.


Which, by the way, is true for 100 percent of the Western world. Outside of rightwing lunacy.

I was asking a question, when thump said Muslims don't push their beliefs on us, when he says us, does he mean, people who don't live close to large populations of Muslims.  If so then that doesn't really say much about Muslims. It's like me saying bears are peaceful creatures, I live in England where the bears live in zoos.

I lived in Iran for four years (before the Revolution) and Saudi Arabia for six months. None of the Muslims I met in either place proselytized me. The Saudi government does push Islam with its laws, no doubt -- as does the current Iranian government, but governments aren't individuals.

To extend your metaphor, I lived in the cages with the bears, and not only didn't get eaten, I got fed -- treated with kindness, respect, and dignity.

Your assumption that I don't know what it's like to live amongst large numbers of Muslims is misplaced. There aren't many here at AF who have more experience doing that than I do, and that is why I speak up about generalizations made regarding Muslims -- because I know first-hand what it's like to be a non-Muslim in a Muslim country.

(March 28, 2016 at 3:56 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(March 27, 2016 at 10:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I was asking a question, when thump said Muslims don't push their beliefs on us, when he says us, does he mean, people who don't live close to large populations of Muslims.  If so then that doesn't really say much about Muslims. It's like me saying bears are peaceful creatures, I live in England where the bears live in zoos.

I lived in Iran for four years (before the Revolution) and Saudi Arabia for six months. None of the Muslims I met in either place proselytized me. The Saudi government does push Islam with its laws, no doubt -- as does the current Iranian government, but governments aren't individuals.

To extend your metaphor, I lived in the cages with the bears, and not only didn't get eaten, I got fed -- treated with kindness, respect, and dignity.

Your assumption that I don't know what it's like to live amongst large numbers of Muslims is misplaced. There aren't many here at AF who have more experience doing that than I do, and that is why I speak up about generalizations made regarding Muslims -- because I know first-hand what it's like to be a non-Muslim in a Muslim country.

No I wasn't making an assumption, it was a question. Laws and governments are formed by people.  In the case of Islamic countries they're formed by Muslims.  If their laws push Islam then if you break those laws I imagine you will be arrested by a Muslim, sentenced by Muslims, and that the law was originally put in place Muslims.  Also I'm not generalizing all Muslims, but there is something that exists in Islam called dawah and it involves proselytizing. There's a difference between generalizing Muslims and pointing out they are doing the same thing Christians do.

(March 28, 2016 at 5:46 am)paulpablo Wrote: No I wasn't making an assumption, it was a question.

I stand corrected, then; my apologies.

 

(March 28, 2016 at 5:46 am)paulpablo Wrote: Laws and governments are formed by people.  In the case of Islamic countries they're formed by Muslims.  If their laws push Islam then if you break those laws I imagine you will be arrested by a Muslim, sentenced by Muslims, and that the law was originally put in place Muslims.

That is correct in the sense that you are describing the faith of the people operating the system. That doesn't mean that the laws are necessarily based on Sharia, nor does it mean that the government is focused on enforcing religious dicta. Some countries have laws which "push" Islam, others don't, and while you're correct in saying that the officials operating the system will likely be Muslim in most Muslim countries, that doesn't mean that they are enforcing Muslim law. In Iran, where my father once got arrested for playing loud music late at night, his experience was entirely secular. There were no religious police there as there were in SA. Point being that simply having Muslims write and apply law is not necessarily pushing Islam on anyone. In SA, that is definitely the result. In Imperial Iran, it most certainly was not.

 

(March 28, 2016 at 5:46 am)paulpablo Wrote: Also I'm not generalizing all Muslims, but there is something that exists in Islam called dawah and it involves proselytizing. There's a difference between generalizing Muslims and pointing out they are doing the same thing Christians do.

My apologies, I should have made that passage in my reply clearer. I wasn't intending to accuse you of generalizing, but explain why I speak up when I see broad generalizations here and in real life as well.

I'm aware of dawah, but thankfully, Muslims are equally adept at cherry-picking as Christians.

abaris Wrote:

The Atheist Wrote:I'm a proud Islamaphobe. I'm also a proud Naziphobe and a proud communistphobe.

---

Gathered as much. Uninformed and ignorant rightwingers aren't exactly new to this board or new to IRL. To mention all of this in one breath, can't lead to any other conclusion. I think, I said that before, but I find it highly amusing that your ilk takes their only information - for lack of a better word - from sites considering themselves holding up the christian tradition. An abomination of christianity, and I'm saying that as an atheist, but still.

Maybe want to reconsider calling yourself The Atheist?

At least they're not calling themselves The Skeptic.

paulpablo Wrote:

Thumpalumpacus Wrote:I lived in Iran for four years (before the Revolution) and Saudi Arabia for six months. None of the Muslims I met in either place proselytized me. The Saudi government does push Islam with its laws, no doubt -- as does the current Iranian government, but governments aren't individuals.

To extend your metaphor, I lived in the cages with the bears, and not only didn't get eaten, I got fed -- treated with kindness, respect, and dignity.

Your assumption that I don't know what it's like to live amongst large numbers of Muslims is misplaced. There aren't many here at AF who have more experience doing that than I do, and that is why I speak up about generalizations made regarding Muslims -- because I know first-hand what it's like to be a non-Muslim in a Muslim country.

No I wasn't making an assumption, it was a question. Laws and governments are formed by people.  In the case of Islamic countries they're formed by Muslims.  If their laws push Islam then if you break those laws I imagine you will be arrested by a Muslim, sentenced by Muslims, and that the law was originally put in place Muslims.  Also I'm not generalizing all Muslims, but there is something that exists in Islam called dawah and it involves proselytizing. There's a difference between generalizing Muslims and pointing out they are doing the same thing Christians do.

In democracies, they're formed by majorities and change is painstakingly slow. It was legal for a man to rape his wife in the USA until the mid 1970s and it wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1993. And a lot of Muslim-majority countries aren't democracies.

My experience with dawah is that it does not involve nagging. They make the offer and if you turn it down, they don't bother you anymore. I wish Christians practiced dawah instead of that annoying witnessing thing so many of them do.

A little off topic, but damn I admire and respect people who apologise if they think they got it wrong.

See, first you said this:

(March 27, 2016 at 9:11 pm)scoobysnack Wrote: I need to stop using the blanket statements, because they are just not true. I've seen a lot of stories in the news in the last five years specifically. The fact we have the term Islamaphobe which gets thrown around a lot. We don't have a term like that for Christians, but I guess we could start calling people antiChrists. Even blanket statements like that are wrong, and most majority of people in Islam, Christianity, and even Atheism are probably good people.

...and I thought "Nice one! This sort of admission & learning could be a Rep earner.".

Then I read this:

Quote:Even the term bigot which gets thrown a lot these days I think applies to pretty much everyone.

Full Definition of bigot

:  a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

..and I thought "You dare call me a bigot?! Fuck you!!".

And now I'm saying it to your face. That's 2 apologies you owe me.

Atheists are half and half. If they aren't SJW they hate Islam even worse than Christianity. That's me.

But then you have the Islam lovers, the regressives. Here are some reasons why:

1. They are more contrarian than principled. Like to look subversive of whatever seems dominant. That's mostly why they are atheists in the first place. It's not really about being right or wrong, it's about making sure no one gets to be right.

2. It's how you look morally superior. We save the helpless little Muslims from the evil bigots who discriminate (and don't even know it). We are so fucking nice, look what we can do! Look how nice and enlightened we are to say "it's their culture" despite the differences most would find distasteful! That just proves how much more understanding we are than regular people! I think that is basically the motivation behind moral relativism, along with some naivete.

3. Stupidity and guilt. The whole "they only act badly because of things we did, if we were just nicer they would recognize it and act rationally". More naivete.

4. It's exotic. Christianity is boring and routine, but few people have ever really met Muslims. It is mysterious. We aren't that well acquainted with the everyday bullshit of it. Familiarity breeds contempt. These people are naive enough to hate Christianity's effect on our country (loudly, I might add) and not realize that Muslims would give us more of exactly that, if not worse.

Then you have the binary thinkers.

I'm in bad moods when I read this thread so I take comments personally.
Agenda was too nice to you. I'm not going to be.
I've got some pent up aggression that I've got to get out of me.
I'm Kirito! Amine, I'll go SAO on your fallacy.

...and back to prose.

(March 29, 2016 at 1:12 pm)Amine Wrote: Atheists are half and half. If they aren't SJW they hate Islam even worse than Christianity. That's me.

Firstly, which one are you? A lack of clarity is the sure sign of a disorganised mind.
B: The fact that you consider social justice to be a pejorative statement is a clear indication of your ignorance and lack of cognitive talent.
iii. Your false dichotomy is so obviously and fractally flawed, I'm amazed that you would even post something like that publically. Have you no shame?
4. How dare you misrepresent me in such a way. You incorrectly assume you know my position when you clearly haven't thought this through in anything more than the most overly simplistic, one-dimensional way.

Quote:But then you have the Islam lovers, the regressives. Here are some reasons why:

1. They are more contrarian than principled. Like to look subversive of whatever seems dominant. That's mostly why they are atheists in the first place. It's not really about being right or wrong, it's about making sure no one gets to be right.

That's right, we're all argumentative pricks who just want to shit on everyone else's day. You petty fuck-wit.

Quote:2. It's how you look morally superior. We save the helpless little Muslims from the evil bigots who discriminate (and don't even know it). We are so fucking nice, look what we can do! Look how nice and enlightened we are to say "it's their culture" despite the differences most would find distasteful! That just proves how much more understanding we are than regular people! I think that is basically the motivation behind moral relativism, along with some naivete.

Were your parents unkind to you? It's just, I'm sensing some bitterness...

Quote:3. Stupidity and guilt. The whole "they only act badly because of things we did, if we were just nicer they would recognize it and act rationally". More naivete.

Yes, everyone but you is a one dimensional thinker with nothing but selfish motivations. You poor thing, it must be so hard having to go through life with everyone else being wrong.

Quote:4. It's exotic. Christianity is boring and routine, but few people have ever really met Muslims. It is mysterious. We aren't that well acquainted with the everyday bullshit of it. Familiarity breeds contempt. These people are naive enough to hate Christianity's effect on our country (loudly, I might add) and not realize that Muslims would give us more of exactly that, if not worse.

Don't be so ridiculous. It may be true for you that you know few muslims but that doesn't necessarily extend across broader populations. To make such a crass generalisation pretty much excludes you from any intelligent conversation on this matter.

In summary, you don't even know me yet you've called me (and pretty much every other liberal-minded atheist on the board) hypocritical, malicious, stupid, ignorant, condescending, an uncritical thinker, petty, selfish, narcissistic, vapid and naive. Is this how you always talk to people because it makes you seem like a fucking arsehole.

Fuck you and I'll add you to the list of fools who owe me apologies.

And yeah, Scooby, I've not forgotten about you either!