(March 30, 2016 at 10:36 am)SteveII Wrote:

(March 28, 2016 at 4:47 pm)GeneralDog Wrote:

So, a little bit ago, I sent one of my friends a text saying "There is a man in the middle east who is giving orders to kill all male children in the town and all the virgin women, isn't that horrible?" and he replied "Heck yes." I said "Numbers 31:37 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man" (he is talking to moses in this verse) At first he seemed shocked, surprised and defeated. All he would say is "Cool" or "God loves you" and wouldn't refute the verse. Then he said he was thinking and he thinks i'm partially right. I gave him some contradictions in the bible. He has now told me he is an atheist, and that I was right.

This begs the question, although my friend was lucky enough to have the blinders taken off to see how imperfect the god of the bible is, why can't other people?

"Oh, you are taking it out of context!" under what context would it be right to kill all the male children and virgins of a town. I do not give it any slack.

"You are misinterpreting it!" If I can misinterpret anything in the bible, then god is a bad communicator, how can an all knowing god, not know how to word his verses to make sure everyone was on the right track. Also, it says there clearly, no amount of claiming I do not know what it says will make it a good thing to say, it is horrible that you are defending him, ironically, you are playing devils advocate.

What do you all think about blatant deniers?

I believe it probably happened.

However, what is your point? That God doesn't exist because he commanded such a thing? That does not follow. That God is a monster? To support that, you would have to assume there was no reason for these actions. Can you do that? Can you put yourself in God's head?

Related to this, why do you think God is under some kind of obligation to extend or preserve life? There is no basis for thinking that. Do you think humans have "rights" in relation to God? That would be to vastly misunderstand what it means to be God. 

Lastly, I won't comment on your friend, but do you really think these issues have not been brought up before (especially among Christians) for literally thousands of years? Do you really believe that there is not a ten thousand pages written for every objection you can come up with? Your arguments are not new and they are not persuasive to someone who allows for the possibility of God's existence and really tries to understand how it might all work together.

EDIT: I found this if you want to educate yourself to the oppositions thoughts on the subject: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/did-god-c...-testament

From that piece of drivel you posted:

Quote:The framework for my ethical theory is what is called divine command morality. What is that? That is an ethical theory which says that our moral duties are constituted by God’s commands. It is God’s commandments to us that give us right and wrong; that determine what we should and should not do. Therefore, if God issues you a command to do something, that becomes your moral duty and it would be wrong for you not to do it. 

This is an absolutely hideous way to think.

(March 30, 2016 at 6:14 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 10:36 am)SteveII Wrote: I believe it probably happened.

However, what is your point? That God doesn't exist because he commanded such a thing? That does not follow. That God is a monster? To support that, you would have to assume there was no reason for these actions. Can you do that? Can you put yourself in God's head?

Related to this, why do you think God is under some kind of obligation to extend or preserve life? There is no basis for thinking that. Do you think humans have "rights" in relation to God? That would be to vastly misunderstand what it means to be God. 

Lastly, I won't comment on your friend, but do you really think these issues have not been brought up before (especially among Christians) for literally thousands of years? Do you really believe that there is not a ten thousand pages written for every objection you can come up with? Your arguments are not new and they are not persuasive to someone who allows for the possibility of God's existence and really tries to understand how it might all work together.

EDIT: I found this if you want to educate yourself to the oppositions thoughts on the subject: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/did-god-c...-testament

From that piece of drivel you posted:

Quote:The framework for my ethical theory is what is called divine command morality. What is that? That is an ethical theory which says that our moral duties are constituted by God’s commands. It is God’s commandments to us that give us right and wrong; that determine what we should and should not do. Therefore, if God issues you a command to do something, that becomes your moral duty and it would be wrong for you not to do it. 

This is an absolutely hideous way to think.

Why? What basis would you have to say that God's analysis of a situation and the correct course of action to follow is wrong? How could you second guess an eternal entity that is omni...everything and whose character is essentially good (moral)? Show me where this is internally inconsistent. I was only pointing out that there are answers to the question the OP brought up and certainly not proof that God does not exist as suggested--only that his "christian" friend was obviously not well informed.

(March 30, 2016 at 6:14 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 10:36 am)SteveII Wrote: I believe it probably happened.

However, what is your point? That God doesn't exist because he commanded such a thing? That does not follow. That God is a monster? To support that, you would have to assume there was no reason for these actions. Can you do that? Can you put yourself in God's head?

Related to this, why do you think God is under some kind of obligation to extend or preserve life? There is no basis for thinking that. Do you think humans have "rights" in relation to God? That would be to vastly misunderstand what it means to be God. 

Lastly, I won't comment on your friend, but do you really think these issues have not been brought up before (especially among Christians) for literally thousands of years? Do you really believe that there is not a ten thousand pages written for every objection you can come up with? Your arguments are not new and they are not persuasive to someone who allows for the possibility of God's existence and really tries to understand how it might all work together.

EDIT: I found this if you want to educate yourself to the oppositions thoughts on the subject: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/did-god-c...-testament

From that piece of drivel you posted:

Quote:The framework for my ethical theory is what is called divine command morality. What is that? That is an ethical theory which says that our moral duties are constituted by God’s commands. It is God’s commandments to us that give us right and wrong; that determine what we should and should not do. Therefore, if God issues you a command to do something, that becomes your moral duty and it would be wrong for you not to do it. 

This is an absolutely hideous way to think.

Time to get out the serpents and strychnine . . .

(March 31, 2016 at 10:00 am)SteveII Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 6:14 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: From that piece of drivel you posted:


This is an absolutely hideous way to think.

Why? What basis would you have to say that God's analysis of a situation and the correct course of action to follow is wrong? How could you second guess an eternal entity that is omni...everything and whose character is essentially good (moral)? Show me where this is internally inconsistent. I was only pointing out that there are answers to the question the OP brought up and certainly not proof that God does not exist as suggested--only that his "christian" friend was obviously not well informed.

Are the people who murder and attempt to murder their children because they claim God told them to do so morally correct in doing so?

(March 30, 2016 at 8:16 am)robvalue Wrote: Indeed.

The problem with this is that God should be able to accomplish any goals any way he wants, so that if the method involves killing, he chose to use that as a method. Otherwise, he's a lot less than all powerful. A lesser deity would be an awful lot easier to defend, for this reason.

Just putting all your trust in anything, without ever questioning or thinking for yourself, is dangerous. That goes for real and imaginary things.

Similarly, saying "God can do whatever he likes and it's fine by me" is surrendering your humanity.

These are general comments, I'm not aiming them at anyone.

I think that one misplaced idea is that god cannot be loving and justify killing people. So if it is absolutely impossible to be loving and justify killing then the biblical god could not possible be moral and loving. I don't believe this. I believe that the death penalty is wrong because of the possibility of even one person being killed unjustly with no chance of retribution. This is in spite of the fact that I do believe some people deserve death. But I would rather 100 deserving death penalties be missed for the 1 undeserving one to be saved. So if God has perfect wisdom, justice, and knowledge, then I believe that he could justifiably use killing as a method of accomplishing his purpose.

This is just me saying that hypothetically I could trust someone like that. Trusting in god doesn't have to be based off incredulity. Maybe someone applies god suggestions on how to live life and trusts god based off of good results. Its a straw man to say that all christians just think, "god can do whatever he likes and its fine by me" and that it includes immoral unjustified actions

(March 31, 2016 at 11:30 am)Won2blv Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 8:16 am)robvalue Wrote: Indeed.

The problem with this is that God should be able to accomplish any goals any way he wants, so that if the method involves killing, he chose to use that as a method. Otherwise, he's a lot less than all powerful. A lesser deity would be an awful lot easier to defend, for this reason.

Just putting all your trust in anything, without ever questioning or thinking for yourself, is dangerous. That goes for real and imaginary things.

Similarly, saying "God can do whatever he likes and it's fine by me" is surrendering your humanity.

These are general comments, I'm not aiming them at anyone.

I think that one misplaced idea is that god cannot be loving and justify killing people. So if it is absolutely impossible to be loving and justify killing then the biblical god could not possible be moral and loving. I don't believe this. I believe that the death penalty is wrong because of the possibility of even one person being killed unjustly with no chance of retribution. This is in spite of the fact that I do believe some people deserve death. But I would rather 100 deserving death penalties be missed for the 1 undeserving one to be saved. So if God has perfect wisdom, justice, and knowledge, then I believe that he could justifiably use killing as a method of accomplishing his purpose.

This is just me saying that hypothetically I could trust someone like that. Trusting in god doesn't have to be based off incredulity. Maybe someone applies god suggestions on how to live life  and trusts god based off of good results. Its a straw man to say that all christians just think, "god can do whatever he likes and its fine by me" and that it includes immoral unjustified actions

God breaks commandment 6. If god requires evil for his purpose, as you claim, "then I believe that he could justifiably use killing as a method of accomplishing his purpose", he isn't all good, as the bible claims. (PSALMS 136:1)

I wonder . . .

Even if God kills you (because He HATES you), but you nevertheless meet the Salvific requirement via belief in Jesus, is it still possible to go to heaven ??

LOL, a person, unaware God Almighty has sent she-bears to rip him limb from limb for planting 2 different kinds of seeds in the same field, in his dying screams belts out "JESUS !!!, Save me from these bears !!!" indicating a sincere and heartfelt belief in the Risen Lord, could nevertheless subvert God's will in punishing him by siccing the bears on him and wind up in heaven.

What a way to run a religion!! (said in 'Borat' voice).

(March 31, 2016 at 11:13 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(March 31, 2016 at 10:00 am)SteveII Wrote: Why? What basis would you have to say that God's analysis of a situation and the correct course of action to follow is wrong? How could you second guess an eternal entity that is omni...everything and whose character is essentially good (moral)? Show me where this is internally inconsistent. I was only pointing out that there are answers to the question the OP brought up and certainly not proof that God does not exist as suggested--only that his "christian" friend was obviously not well informed.

Are the people who murder and attempt to murder their children because they claim God told them to do so morally correct in doing so?

God commanded the recognized intermediary leader of a theocracy (Moses, Joshua, or a judge--depending on what story you want to use), to carry out a battle strategy in a brutal time and in a brutal land. 

Your scenario is nonsense.

Not sure why people get worked up about all the omni/eternal/mega qualities of the Christian cosmic watchmaker. This notion is too bogus to deserve serious criticism. Much better just to laugh and move on.