(March 30, 2016 at 9:39 pm)scoobysnack Wrote:

(March 30, 2016 at 9:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Maybe you are not quit aware of what the FFRF does. They are a national organization, not an international one. 

Their main purpose is to protect separation of church and state, and to protect the Constitutional rights of non-theists.

The only religious group in the US with the power to inflict their unConstitutional, religion based laws on the US are Christians.

They don't seem to care about preserving rights of Christians that much though. Yes though I don't follow them that much, although they are located in my city, Madison WI. What about the Jews for example? I don't see atheist targeting Jews all that much. Not that I want to start the thread in that direction, and maybe it's from my limited experience but seems to be more directed at Christians. For example, I read the opinion pieces in the newspaper from the heads of the FFRF on Christian holidays talking about the need to get away from them, but don't seem to see them talking about Islam or Judaism in that context. Not that I follow FFRF that closely at all, so I'm sure there are instances.

You're really a bit clueless, aren't you?

First of all, protecting the separation of Church and state does protect Christians. 

Jews are not trying to get pseudoscience taught in public schools. Jews don't yell "persecution" when Nativity Scenes are removed from publicly owned property, etc.

Again, they don't talk about Islam and Judaism in the same context as Christianity because neither of those religions have the political power base to force their religious beliefs into US law. 

Quote:Do you think a child should be able to bring a bible, torah, or koran to public school to read, even if they are not sharing it with others? Do you think Christians should be allowed to give out Christmas cards to their friends at school? What about Jehovahs witnesses who don't celebrate holidays, or even birthdays? Should we accommodate their beliefs and not mention birthdays in the workplace? We had to stop having holiday and birthday celebrations at work to accommodate one Jehovah's witness in my dept to make it inclusive. Instead we had random parties. Do you as an atheist get upset during holidays?

My nephew is quite religious, He brings his Bible to his public middle school in LA all the time.

I do not get upset during holidays. 

I usually attend Christmas parties. You do know that almost every single Christmas tradition is Pagan, right?[/quote]

(March 31, 2016 at 9:01 pm)Amine Wrote:

(March 31, 2016 at 7:28 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Given that you obviously have no understanding what my worldview is, or how amenable I am to changing my mind, I really don't care what you retract and what you adhere to.

The closest parallel is the transition to communism in Imperial Russia. The idea that the final outcome represents the will of the people doesn't really jibe in either case.

Yes, I'm sure it was all just an accident. Who knows what they could become if a butterfly somewhere on the other side of the world had flapped its wings differently, maybe Pastafarians! Maybe they would have voted in a Heaven's Gate cult government with massive popular support. Who can make any connections?!

That's a pretty dumb connection you're making there. Good thing I never said anything like that!

Some people will go to any length to avoid admitting error. I've apparently found another one in you.

You have a nice evening now.

I go absolutely mental during any and every holiday, and I kill and then eat anyone who dares wish me a "happy" anything. It's my human rights as someone who believes in nothing.

Seems like a "click bait" subject... guess I fell for it.

(March 31, 2016 at 11:50 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: That's a pretty dumb connection you're making there.  Good thing I never said anything like that!

Some people will go to any length to avoid admitting error.  I've apparently found another one in you.

You have a nice evening now.

My view is if I get proved wrong, good. But you've yet to do that. 95% of what you've said is lazy insults and sarcasm. I actually don't mind that and won't whine about it, but it doesn't get you anywhere either. "He called me an idiot, I must be wrong!". You said the outcome didn't represent the will of the people, as if it is just a coincidence that a Shiite government popped up where... the majority happen to be Shiites. So to be more clear, the ushering in of this radical Islamic government was backed by massive popular support. The April 1st 1979 referendum asked "Islamic Republic, yes or no" and virtually everyone said yes. And they got the shitty government they asked for.

Britannica goes into a bit more detail about the role of Islam in the reaction to the Shah's corruption:
"In January 1978, incensed by what they considered to be slanderous remarks made against Khomeini in Eṭṭelāʿāt, a Tehrān newspaper, thousands of young madrassa (religious school) students took to the streets. They were followed by thousands more Iranian youth—mostly unemployed recent immigrants from the countryside—who began protesting the regime’s excesses. The shah, weakened by cancer and stunned by the sudden outpouring of hostility against him, vacillated between concession and repression, assuming the protests to be part of an international conspiracy against him. Many people were killed by government forces in anti-regime protests, serving only to fuel the violence in a Shīʿite country where martyrdom played a fundamental role in religious expression. Fatalities were followed by demonstrations to commemorate the customary 40-day milestone of mourning in Shīʿite tradition, and further casualties occurred at those protests, mortality and protest propelling one another forward. Thus, in spite of all government efforts, a cycle of violence began in which each death fueled further protest, and all protest—from the secular left and religious right—was subsumed under the cloak of Shīʿite Islam and crowned by the revolutionary rallying cry Allāhu akbar (“God is great”), which could be heard at protests and which issued from the rooftops in the evenings."

Amine Wrote:

Thumpalumpacus Wrote:I lived in Iran for four years and Saudi Arabia for most of one. Pretty sure I've got the background to make informed comments on the matter. And I found the people there to be great, in both countries. SA's governance, of course, is shitty, but under the shah's regime in Iran, the law was secular and the people held many of our values.

How about you? What experiences in Muslim countries informs your opinion?

That's nice that you have that to wave around at people, I bet you're just beside yourself. I've never been to one and don't plan on going any time soon. While I'm sure there are plenty of nice, nonpsychopathic people there, the beliefs of individuals don't often show bad consequences until seen at the group level. You could go visit the Westboro Baptist Church like Louie Thoreaux and live with them for a couple of weeks and realize that they're actually a pretty friendly bunch. They just have some batshit insane ideas about reality. Luckily, they are tiny. If they weren't, they'd still be the same people, but the governance, of course, would be shitty. And by the way, how'd that whole thing with the Shah in Iran go again? Radical Islam ushered in under massive popular support, if I recall? We tried, though, huh?

You're hilarious. You question someone's experience with Muslims and when they indicate they have that experience you act all butthurt and try make out like they're 'waving around' their experience. How old are you?

Amine Wrote:

Quote:Thumpalumpacus

Quote:Given that you obviously have no understanding what my worldview is, or how amenable I am to changing my mind, I really don't care what you retract and what you adhere to.

The closest parallel is the transition to communism in Imperial Russia. The idea that the final outcome represents the will of the people doesn't really jibe in either case.

Yes, I'm sure it was all just an accident. Who knows what they could become if a butterfly somewhere on the other side of the world had flapped its wings differently, maybe Pastafarians! Maybe they would have voted in a Heaven's Gate cult government with massive popular support. Who can make any connections?!

Maybe if the West hadn't replaced the fairly elected reformist president with the iron-fisted Shah, Iran would have stayed on the secular course it was on before the major powers rearranged things to suit themselves.

You know, we get this topic, or ones very much like it, from time to time. Just once I'd like to see one of these 'you're all regressives who support beheading and FGM and stoning adulteresses' lead with something like 'the Saudi Government executed 12 people for heresy yesterday, let's hear you defend that!'.

The reason they don't is that they know we don't defend that. They carefully word their generalizations and accusations in such a way as to prevent honest communication. They accuse us of saying 'it's just their culture' on such occasions without ever putting themselves in the position of having to back it up. They try to put us in a position where being factual about reality makes us complicit in atrocities.

Just an observation.

(April 1, 2016 at 10:12 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Maybe if the West hadn't replaced the fairly elected reformist president with the iron-fisted Shah, Iran would have stayed on the secular course it was on before the major powers rearranged things to suit themselves.

Maybe if X had Y, Z. Maybe not. Guess who opposed Reza Shah.

(April 1, 2016 at 10:38 am)Amine Wrote: Maybe if X had Y, Z. Maybe not. Guess who opposed Reza Shah.

Curious for your answer. It will determine if you are at all to be taken seriously on any level.