Quote:So despite all the suffering and death, he really does still love us, and when he does those things we actually deserve them...it's not his fault...he just gets so angry...

this statement proves that your view is simplistic. You fall back on your presumptions about what you think I believe and what you think the bible says about suffereing. 

Quote:The Bible is about a monster that kills droves of people and animals, and his name is Yahweh.
Why, because humans lack souls?

The entire Bible is one large, poorly-contrived lie. It's honestly kind of embarrassing that I believed it for so long.
Sin (offense against god) is not real because gods are not real.

These lies don't serve you and won't save you. 

Quote:My moral superiority is not a point of pride, but of objective fact. I live in a time that is demonstrably less violent and criminal than ages past, and that trend is directly proportional to the global decline of religion and the continued advances of science and secularism.

You think that there is a decline in religion where are you getting this from? Also, where is the data to back up your statement that this is a more peaceful time and that it is directly related to the fact that there is a lack of religion? Also the Communist China, communist Russia, Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler these people and governments were (are) secular so it isn't religion it is the heart of man that is deceitful and wicked. Life isn't that simple to say all religion is evil and if we're can be rid of it then everything will be great. That is a very naive viewpoint and I believe a misunderstanding of history and human nature.

Quote:Except for Egypt, Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, Satan and his rebels, the whole of antediluvian humanity, that one fig tree that one time...shit, who else?

This is again an oversimplification of the facts and a misunderstand of what the bible says. When life stops at science you will never be able to fully deal with reality. You can't say what happened here is wrong because you don't understand it you don't have a framework to comprehend it. Your claim to say you do is just playing at God and it is a game that you will lose. You are morally, intellectually, physically, and spiritually incapable for the job. 

Quote:Anyone who would not condemn someone to infinite punishment for finite crimes has the moral high ground when dealing with your god character.

It is not a finite crime it is an infinite crime against an infinite God because God is the one who holds you together. Yet, you use the breath and life he gives you and don't just ignore God just fight against God.  When you do wrong to others whether intentionally or intentionally you use what He has given you to do wrong. You are a thief when you lie to yourself and say He doesn't exist and live life as you deem fit. You don't understand because you are unwilling to understand and this is foolish and destructive. Yet, God is rich in mercy and grace. The fact that you are still breathing is proof of this. 

Quote:I sincerely have no reason to believe that Hell exists. I know your claim is that it does, but I don't "know" that I'm going to end up in Hell because as far as I'm concerned, there is no such place. There is no more reason to believe in Hell than there is to believe in the god that supposedly created it, and until I have a really good reason to believe it, I'm just not going to.

There are many thing that you don't believe nor could understand that are real. Just because you deny it doesn't make it not exist. 

Quote:Until you can prove the existence of souls, your god, and this afterlife, your claim is not only asinine but also insidious. It is the very worst kind of fraud, and you should be ashamed of yourself for propagating it.

I am not going to be ashamed of the truth. What is a shame is that you don't have proof the there isn't a soul or God or an afterlife. I have the Bible, I have the presence of God, the fellowship of believers and history, and nature. You may say this isn't proof, but God deemed it enough. What is asinine and insidious it to lie to yourself and other about the reality of evil, hell and God. Your claims of morals is fallacious there can't be anything wrong with hurt of suffereing in your world because people are just highly evolved organisms. If you want to end the suffereing of organisms then you need to see what we can do about the suffereing of plant life. The suffereing of mosquitos and other such animal life. You can't just start thinking about humans because you are one or dogs because you like them. How much of your "truth" is a regurgitation of the world and how much of it is actually reality?

Quote:The Golden Rule, as I understand it, is "treat others the way you want to be treated." That covers things you don't want people to do, and things you would want them to do (like help you if you're hungry, for instance). No part of that demands the presence of a god, nor does it necessitate that the beings involved possess any "intrinsic worth," whatever that is. 

Since you deem the bible full of lies then I assume you don't ascribe to the golden rule in the bible instead you ascribe to a "golden rule" that predates the bible. So, I will assume that it is a golden rule that says don't do to others as you would have them do to you. Like the one Confucius said. If you ascribe to one that tells people to do onto others then please state it because I am unaware of it.

Rekeisha wrote:
"There are many thing that you don't believe nor could understand that are real. Just because you deny it doesn't make it not exist. "

-- And just by asserting that these things exist doesn't make it so.  I can assert that silver unicorns exist until I'm blue in the face (just like you are doing with your assertions) and until you can do better than make statements, it's all a waste of effort.  

[b]Rekeisha wrote:[/b]
[b]"I am not going to be ashamed of the truth. What is a shame is that you don't have proof the there isn't a soul or God or an afterlife. I have the Bible, I have the presence of God, the fellowship of believers and history, and nature. You may say this isn't proof, but God deemed it enough." [/b]

[b]--Again, you declare it's the truth, but just because you've been told it is by a congregation, or a book, or your feelings doesn't make it so and isn't convincing.[/b]

[b]"How much of your "truth" is a regurgitation of the world and how much of it is actually reality?"[/b]

[b]--How much of your "truth" is a regurgitation of what you've been taught to believe, because you were born to Christian parents instead of Hindu ones, and how much are fairy tales?  At least we can measure and prove what is in the world.  Until I have more concrete proof of your god than your assertions that you're right and we're wrong, I will not believe that god exists.   The Bible is not proof.  Anecdotes and personal stories are not proof.  Nature is not proof. Feelings are not proof.  [/b]

(April 7, 2016 at 2:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(April 7, 2016 at 11:42 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

---

 Yep, I am bad at grammar, spelling and communication but I am working on it. 

To use your standard of right living what give you the right to correct my behavior? Are you attacking me? Are you saying that the way I am dealing with His is wrong and arrogant? If you believe that this kind of behavior is reprehensible then why are you behaving in the same way you so vehemently condemn?  

If you can get passed all of my incorrect grammar did you read why I called him arrogant and prejudice? Have you read my other post where I never claim I am better, but that I have the same sin nature as everyone else?

---

 
If you refuse to be corrected then you are rejecting knowledge.

---

Don't let your pride keep you from learning the truth about yourself. God is the only one who can awaken you to your own sin to your own pride and prejudice. If you pretend to be above all of that you are lying to yourself because we all struggle with pride and prejudices. God is the only one who is pure and holy and your rejection of Him is outrageous and prideful. So we all have pride and we all need the blood of christ to cure us of it.

---

You have a point. I should probably take Redbeard's high road and refuse to return your judgments and insults with like behavior.  It is sometimes difficult to turn the other cheek when a person's behavior is constantly vile, like yours.

I don't believe that god exists.  I have most of the wholly babble memorized. Slinging verses my way is a waste of time. Judging me as prideful, prejudiced, deluded and arrogant does not provide proof of god's existence.  Insults are counter-productive, they drive people away.  

And that's why I insulted you.  I hope you go away.  You haven't proven a single sentence in all of your posts. You just keep repeating the same stupid drivel when faced with an intelligent and gentle debater.  And then you attack his intellect and character, using your silly book and your imaginary friend to bash someone else just to make yourself feel superior.  

You know what?  You're so good at this witnessing thing, we should hire you.  You could be the best atheist creator on the planet!

It is always difficult to turn the other cheek, in fact in your own strength it is just behavior modification you still hate the person. You can only live out the things that Jesus commands in the bible, like turning the other cheek, in the power of the Holy Spirit. I understand your interpretation of my words sound hateful and annoying. I am not sure if there is anything I could do that would change that. ( I am honestly unsure if I should change them or not). If you live in America we are so concerned about the individual that we have made it difficult for anyone to speak the truth about our behaviour to us. Speaking from experience I know it is hard to be criticized and it is hard to see what you don't want to see. I am not on here because I though "hey today I am going to go torment a group of people on the internet!" I have better things to do than to make people mad. The deal is no matter what you believe I know that you are worth talking to and worth contending for. You are an amazing creation of God and He paid an infinite price so that you may enjoy Him . I not going to pretend to be great at witnessing. I am not going to pretend that what you do and say about God is ok. I am seeking to live in the truth, enjoy God and glorify Him. Part of being a witness is not saving anyone but pointing out Jesus. I can't save you only God can.

You should be concerned the fact that you ascribe to something, but you don't live it out. You say that it is wrong to judge but since you want to be rid of me you break your own standards. Trying harder isn't going to work because one day someone like me or worst is going to show up and what you truly believe (not what you say you believe) will come out. I am not going to sit here and pretend that I got it all together or that I don't break God's standards. The difference is that I have accepted my need and gone to the only one that can help. 

You say that pride, arrogance are not proof of God but they are. If we stick to evolution pride and arrogance would seem to be a beneficial attribute but why do people hate it so much? Why, do we become so offended? It is because we have been given an innate standard from God. 

As for me being an atheist making machine, you were an atheist before I showed up I haven't made more since I have been here. There isn't anyone amazed at my atheist making skills. I am just on one thread on one website. If you don't like what I have to say you don't have to read it. You don't have to respond.

(April 8, 2016 at 3:21 pm)Rekeisha Wrote:

Quote:Except for Egypt, Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, Satan and his rebels, the whole of antediluvian humanity, that one fig tree that one time...shit, who else?

This is again an oversimplification of the facts and a misunderstand of what the bible says.

So how is what he's saying wrong? You dismiss it out of hand as an oversimplification, but you do nothing to actually explain why that is, which is a problem because first of all, you've offered no justification for your assertion and second, you've provided Redbeard no opportunity to correct his views if, indeed, he's wrong in them. I feel like you could be doing better, both for yourself and for others, if you added a little more effort to your responses beyond simplistic "nuh uh!"s.

Quote:Since you deem the bible full of lies then I assume you don't ascribe to the golden rule in the bible instead you ascribe to a "golden rule" that predates the bible. So, I will assume that it is a golden rule that says don't do to others as you would have them do to you. Like the one Confucius said. If you ascribe to one that tells people to do onto others then please state it because I am unaware of it.

The golden rule predates the bible, as you seem to acknowledge, but weirdly, you don't actually seem to know what the formulation of it was before Jesus "said" it. Have you even read Confucius' version? "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." It's literally the same sentiment, just presented in a passive voice: why would you then lie and say that Confucius' version was "don't do to others as you would have them do to you."?

(April 8, 2016 at 4:50 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 8, 2016 at 3:21 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: This is again an oversimplification of the facts and a misunderstand of what the bible says.

So how is what he's saying wrong? You dismiss it out of hand as an oversimplification, but you do nothing to actually explain why that is, which is a problem because first of all, you've offered no justification for your assertion and second, you've provided Redbeard no opportunity to correct his views if, indeed, he's wrong in them. I feel like you could be doing better, both for yourself and for others, if you added a little more effort to your responses beyond simplistic "nuh uh!"s.

Quote:Since you deem the bible full of lies then I assume you don't ascribe to the golden rule in the bible instead you ascribe to a "golden rule" that predates the bible. So, I will assume that it is a golden rule that says don't do to others as you would have them do to you. Like the one Confucius said. If you ascribe to one that tells people to do onto others then please state it because I am unaware of it.

The golden rule predates the bible, as you seem to acknowledge, but weirdly, you don't actually seem to know what the formulation of it was before Jesus "said" it. Have you even read Confucius' version? "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." It's literally the same sentiment, just presented in a passive voice: why would you then lie and say that Confucius' version was "don't do to others as you would have them do to you."?

Apparently he/she/it has found that calling something an oversimplification is an effective way to deal with anything that he/she/it cannot answer cogently. Unfortunately, what theists view as an effective cover is about two inches thinner than wet tissue paper.

(April 8, 2016 at 3:21 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: this statement proves that your view is simplistic. You fall back on your presumptions about what you think I believe and what you think the bible says about suffereing. 

Frankly, I don't much care what the Bible says about suffering because I see no good reason to believe what's in the Bible. My views on suffering have basically nothing to do with what's in the Bible.

Quote:These lies don't serve you and won't save you. 

Your god doesn't serve you and won't save you.

Quote:You think that there is a decline in religion where are you getting this from?

Statistics. Nonreligious people are the fastest growing group of the population in most modernized countries, and some countries are even predominantly atheist now and have been for a while. You can thank the internet for the spike in atheism, by the way. Having all the arguments and information in the world makes it a little easier for some people to be exposed to new things and parse out which ones are bullshit.

Quote: Also, where is the data to back up your statement that this is a more peaceful time and that it is directly related to the fact that there is a lack of religion?

I said "directly proportional", which means that both overall violence and religiosity have both been decreasing. That's not to say that one caused the other, but if a lack of religion actually caused violence, crime, or immorality, then we would expect to see an increase in these things as religion declines.


We don't, though. We see the opposite, which suggests that either religion is unrelated to morality and they just happen to have a directly proportional relationship, or the rise of secularism has actually had a measurable, positive impact on the globe.


I would take time to dig out the actual stats and link to them, but I honestly don't believe you'll even click on them, and even if you did you'd just gloss over it with your religion-glasses and spit out something from the Bible.

Quote:Also the Communist China, communist Russia, Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler these people and governments were (are) secular so it isn't religion it is the heart of man that is deceitful and wicked. Life isn't that simple to say all religion is evil and if we're can be rid of it then everything will be great. That is a very naive viewpoint and I believe a misunderstanding of history and human nature.

Oh wow. You brought out the cold war atheists. Bad move.


Hitler was a Christian, and the Nazi party was an overtly Christian group. There was virtually nothing secular about the German government during the years the Nazis were in charge.


Stalin saw religion as a threat to his power and essentially tried to set up Marxist Atheism as the state religion, the way most dictators do with one religion or another. That had very little to do with wanting to get rid of religion and everything to do with consolidating power around the state.


Mao, on the other hand, was smart enough to start a personality cult centered around himself rather than just trying to push everyone toward atheism. Again, this was a power move and had little to nothing to do with atheism in and of itself.


Mussolini is just a bad example. He used religion when it suited him. He was likely an atheist all his life, but he gave both his children communion publicly, he had a religious marriage ceremony with a wife he'd married 10 years prior in a civil ceremony, and he declared Catholicism the state religion with a concordat he signed in 1929. Italy has been Catholic since the late days of Rome, and even if Mussolini thought it was stupid, he knew he had to pander to that to stay popular.

Quote:This is again an oversimplification of the facts and a misunderstand of what the bible says. When life stops at science you will never be able to fully deal with reality. You can't say what happened here is wrong because you don't understand it you don't have a framework to comprehend it. Your claim to say you do is just playing at God and it is a game that you will lose. You are morally, intellectually, physically, and spiritually incapable for the job.

Wow. Just wow.


Morality (even yours) was invented by humans. I am every bit as capable of making moral judgments as anyone else is, and I seem to be more capable of moral judgement than you, since I don't have to depend on an allegedly "divine" command to tell me what right and wrong is. Unlike you, I get to think for myself.

Quote:It is not a finite crime it is an infinite crime against an infinite God because God is the one who holds you together.

That is nonsense. Theft is a finite crime. Murder is a finite crime. All human crimes are finite crimes, and infinite punishment for a finite crime is infinitely immoral.

Quote:Yet, you use the breath and life he gives you and don't just ignore God just fight against God.  When you do wrong to others whether intentionally or intentionally you use what He has given you to do wrong. You are a thief when you lie to yourself and say He doesn't exist and live life as you deem fit.

No. To be a thief, I would have to be someone who steals things. I do not steal things, therefore I am not a thief. I shouldn't have to explain the word "thief" to a grown woman.

Quote:You don't understand because you are unwilling to understand and this is foolish and destructive. Yet, God is rich in mercy and grace. The fact that you are still breathing is proof of this.

You worship a thug.


"The robber has the gun to your head, and you deserve to have him pull that trigger, but because he is rich in mercy and grace, he hasn't pulled the trigger yet. Can't you see how much he loves you?"


Get a grip.

Quote:There are many thing that you don't believe nor could understand that are real. Just because you deny it doesn't make it not exist. 

You and your Bible affirming it doesn't make it exist, either. If something exists, there should be evidence of the fact; if you don't have evidence, you don't have a good reason to believe something exists.

Quote:I am not going to be ashamed of the truth. What is a shame is that you don't have proof the there isn't a soul or God or an afterlife.

For the millionth time already, that is a misplacement of the burden of proof. If you say these things exist, it's up to you to demonstrate it to someone that doesn't believe it. We do not have to demonstrate the nonexistence of something in order to have a good reason not to believe in it. The lack of evidence for it is a good enough reason.

Quote:I have the Bible,

The claim, which can't be used as evidence of itself...

Quote:I have the presence of God,

Warm fuzzy feelings...

Quote: the fellowship of believers and history,

Other people's warm fuzzy feelings...

Quote:and nature.

Which is evidence of natural processes and shows no signs of being designed or interfered with by a "higher power."

Quote:You may say this isn't proof, but God deemed it enough.

Before you claim that your god deemed or didn't deem this or that, you have to be able to demonstrate that he exists. Ancient books, your personal delusions, the personal delusions of other religious people, and nature itself are not demonstrations of any gods.

Quote:What is asinine and insidious it to lie to yourself and other about the reality of evil, hell and God.

You're right. I sure wish you'd stop doing it.

Quote:Your claims of morals is fallacious there can't be anything wrong with hurt of suffereing in your world because people are just highly evolved organisms.

Highly evolved organisms who are accountable to each other (and themselves) and who invented the concepts of right and wrong. Humans have collectively decided that suffering is bad and that deliberately causing needless suffering is wrong, and that's what makes it wrong. Humans define what is right and wrong.

Quote:If you want to end the suffereing of organisms then you need to see what we can do about the suffereing of plant life.

Where did I say I wanted to end all suffering for all organisms? My morality is motivated by reducing suffering; eliminating it is an unrealistic proposition. Some suffering is inherent and unavoidable, mainly because everything has evolved to eat everything else, and because everything eventually dies.

Quote:The suffereing of mosquitos and other such animal life. You can't just start thinking about humans because you are one or dogs because you like them. How much of your "truth" is a regurgitation of the world and how much of it is actually reality?

Humans have evolved to be a social, cooperative species because it helps us survive in the wild. Some of us have even developed empathetic relationships with other species both to survive and to improve our quality of life. Other species we are indifferent toward, and others we are hostile toward because they represent threats on the food chain or forms of food for us. In nature, morality tends to favor the species where it appears, so there's no reason to believe it has to apply perfectly to the suffering of every live organism on the planet. That's just not realistic.

Quote:Since you deem the bible full of lies then I assume you don't ascribe to the golden rule in the bible instead you ascribe to a "golden rule" that predates the bible. So, I will assume that it is a golden rule that says don't do to others as you would have them do to you. Like the one Confucius said. If you ascribe to one that tells people to do onto others then please state it because I am unaware of it.

I literally just told you the wording of the Golden Rule that I hold. Why would you need to assume anything about what I ascribe to? "Treat others the way you want to be treated." It's very simple. It covers things you should do and things you shouldn't do. How do you get an inherently negative rule out of that without just ignoring what I actually said?

Quote: You are an amazing creation of God and He paid an infinite price so that you may enjoy Him 

Say whaaaaat?!


No, he did not. Your holy book says he was dead for 3 days, after which he ascended into heaven to be king of the Universe at God's right hand. That is not an infinite sacrifice. That's hardly an inconvenience.

Actually there are likely far fewer Christians in the world than statistics would show. For one thing, there’s no consensus on what constitutes being a Christian. Statistics don’t differentiate between real Scotsmen. For two things, many people are in the closet about their atheism and will not disabuse people who assume they are Christians for fear of social reprisals. Despite the rise in secularism, Christians still act as gate keepers, especially in pockets like the Bible belt.

Since the time of Constantine, Christianity has been the drug of choice for controlling the masses in the west. As Redbeard pointed out, the communist regimes basically say Christianity as a rival. Arguing that Hitler wasn’t a real Christian doesn’t help because he would not have bothered pretending to be a Christian if it weren’t an effective way to get “real” Christians to do his will. Hitler didn’t kill 6 million Jews with his own hands.

Also, and I'm not an expert on this, as I understand it the Catholic Church keeps record of the baptismal figures, which for obvious reasons don't take into account the numbers who leave the church later. That's got to skew the percentage a little.

And if following Jesus ever did 'work', it would only 'work' for folks that follow the One True Faith to the letter, no slackers would ever measure up to accrue the benefit of His lordly grace.

And other than an ability to speak in tongues, heal the sick via the laying on of the hands, being impervious to poison and invulnerable to snakebite, looks like there isn't much Jesus can do for you while you're on earth, the big payoff occurs in avoiding

ETERNAL INFINITE and EXCRUCIATING TORMENT.