(March 21, 2011 at 5:14 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Loser

Yup fr0d0. You win, I lose.

Yay!

(March 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yay!

Could you share one of those cookies? Im still scratching my head over what we were discussing.

(March 21, 2011 at 5:10 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: What am I doing? This is like arguing over wether Humpty Dumpty was either a chicken egg or a goose egg.

You are talking to someone with a scambled christian eggs for brain.

(March 21, 2011 at 5:52 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(March 21, 2011 at 5:10 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: What am I doing? This is like arguing over wether Humpty Dumpty was either a chicken egg or a goose egg.

You are talking to someone with a scambled christian eggs for brain.

I like fr0d0. I really mean that, from the time I have spent on this forum I like his sense of humor, and some of his posts are great. I bet fr0d0 would be great to hang out with at the pub, and probably is cool to work with and stuff..but when he talks his mysticism stuff he just completely loses me. The funny thing is I used to be mystic minded, but that was a long time ago. It just seems so foreign to me now.

I would ask god how he could be so powerful as to create existence out of nothing but he still has to command loyalty through threats and intimidation. Then I would politely ask to go to hell because I don't responde to bullies.

(March 20, 2011 at 1:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I'm not watering it down or picking meaning... I'm telling you what it actually says, exactly.

I wish I had a dollar for every Christian that makes this exact claim.

Well--(non-joking answer) since I have the gift of reason, I always act for an end, I always desire to be happy, and my free will only operates with such freedom because I don't always know the best ways to make myself happy...in other words, because I can convince myself that several different things could make me happy, I feel free to choose any of them.

If God is who they (the Christians) say He is--He's pure happiness--He's the fulfillment of all desire and all being. If I really knew that total reality, there would be no excuse to pick anything other than Him--I would be compelled by my own inner freedom (because my freedom exists to allow me to choose what will make me happy) to worship Him. That is--IF God appeared to me. I haven't seen any visions lately. Of course, Christians say that that non-appearance of a big vision to me is because He respects my freedom, and wants me to battle heroically to choose Him, and so only gives us glimpses--bite-sized increments of knowledge of God. If that's true, I think the fact that I'm on this chat-room shows that there's a down-side to that kind of freedom. The ignorance such a God leaves me--the fact that it does not seem absolutely certain to me that there is a knowing, loving God, who is the fulfillment of all my desire--leaves me just enough room to reject Him, too. So I guess the real question for me isn't: "what if God appeared in front of you right now"--because, inasmuch as He ever does to most people (if He existed at all) He is right now to me, in the little moments of life. The question to me is: "what are you going to do with the little evidences that you could interpret for or against God right now?"

That's the darndest thing about reality--as long as you're open to it, it keeps on asking the same darned questions over and over again until you're dead. I feel like I can reject God 80 bzillion times and the 80 bzillionth & 1st, the question is still going to be there, until I give it a shot.

All I know is that if god appears between me and the urinal he's getting pissed on. At my age the kidneys don't handle false starts very well.

(March 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm)QuestingHound08 Wrote: Well--(non-joking answer) since I have the gift of reason, I always act for an end, I always desire to be happy, and my free will only operates with such freedom because I don't always know the best ways to make myself happy...in other words, because I can convince myself that several different things could make me happy, I feel free to choose any of them.

Reason as a GIFT?! Reason is not a gift. Reason is something that one must WORK to understand and acheive. Just because people can arbitrarily make a choice (typically blinded by intent) does not mean it is reasonable. Show me something you think is reasonable, and I will show you another person who thinks it isnt. The closest we can come to true reason, as emotionally leaning beings, is to bolster our thoughts with logic. Logic goes beyond the human condition, and therefore must be worked on.

(March 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm)QuestingHound08 Wrote: If God is who they (the Christians) say He is--He's pure happiness--He's the fulfillment of all desire and all being. If I really knew that total reality, there would be no excuse to pick anything other than Him--I would be compelled by my own inner freedom (because my freedom exists to allow me to choose what will make me happy) to worship Him.

If god is who they say he is, then he is twisted and absurd. Pure happiness? I guees if he gets off on things like eternal torture in a lake of fire, sure, he has eternal happiness. Watching little children get raped and murdered and doing nothing to stop it? Sure, if that makes him happy. Freedom would be an illusion in a cosmos dominated by an all powerful, all knowing being. We would merely be pawns playing out his script, ants under his magnifying glass, toys for his amusement. And what possible use is worship good for? Appeasing the ego of a being who knows everything and can have whatever he wants at the snap of a finger? Someone who has to stoop to base threats of torture in eternal fire for his creations to appease his ego?

Do you really love God? Do you really want to make him happy? What will you do if he tells you that sending you into the lake of fire for all eternity will make him happy? Ask for an even higher power for help? Will you jump in willingly? Dont give me that "I know he will not ask me that" excuse..a man who openly brags about a flaming eternal torture chamber is NOT to be trusted with ANYTHING they promise.

(March 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm)QuestingHound08 Wrote: That is--IF God appeared to me. I haven't seen any visions lately. Of course, Christians say that that non-appearance of a big vision to me is because He respects my freedom, and wants me to battle heroically to choose Him, and so only gives us glimpses--bite-sized increments of knowledge of God.

Thats funny..we skeptics say that if you have a vision, and you arent on drugs, then you need to go see a doctor, and a non-appearance of a vision is EXACTLY what you would expect in a godless environment.

(March 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm)QuestingHound08 Wrote: If that's true, I think the fact that I'm on this chat-room shows that there's a down-side to that kind of freedom. The ignorance such a God leaves me--the fact that it does not seem absolutely certain to me that there is a knowing, loving God, who is the fulfillment of all my desire--leaves me just enough room to reject Him, too. So I guess the real question for me isn't: "what if God appeared in front of you right now"--because, inasmuch as He ever does to most people (if He existed at all) He is right now to me, in the little moments of life. The question to me is: "what are you going to do with the little evidences that you could interpret for or against God right now?"

If god left you ignorant, then why complain? Thats "his will". Who are you to oppose his will. Hey, you are the believer, not me. One does not see a creation from a loving god. One sees the environment as a product of a godless universe. Prove to me your god isnt fuckin with you and playing with you for his amusement. Prove to me your god hasnt sent you here to this forum in order for us atheists to laugh at you. It doesnt matter what you think or I think. If an "all powerful deity" exists in this cosmos he can do damn well whatever he wants regardless of whatever promises you think you have with him. Where did you get those promises? From a book? Did men write that book claiming "god" was guiding their hand? Yeah.. humans are very trustworthy when it comes to god. They NEVER insert their own greedy intent into their discussions of what "god" wants..do they? It doesnt matter wether a god exists or not..such a god would be malevolently absurd and the source of all absurdity.

(March 22, 2011 at 3:09 pm)QuestingHound08 Wrote: That's the darndest thing about reality--as long as you're open to it, it keeps on asking the same darned questions over and over again until you're dead. I feel like I can reject God 80 bzillion times and the 80 bzillionth & 1st, the question is still going to be there, until I give it a shot.

Been there, done that, didnt like it, dumped it.

(March 22, 2011 at 9:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: All I know is that if god appears between me and the urinal he's getting pissed on. At my age the kidneys don't handle false starts very well.

If god puts himself and yourself into that situation, he has only to blame himself.

Then again, if god is ANYTHING like that prick in the old testament, he will blame you anyways and punish you for it.

(March 19, 2011 at 5:45 am)Jax Wrote: So God appeared right in front of you.
He allows you to say/ask anything to him, but only one thing. Whether it be an insult or not.

I was pretty much asked this exact thing in all sincerity from a believing friend of mine. He's ordained.
My reply: "Why did you bother creating us in the first place?"

I then proceeded to run down the long list of things God foreknew would happen before creating us, including the death of his son, original sin and God's knowledge that he created us knowing beforehand that we would fail and that he would allow thousands of years of suffering because of his conscious decision to create a being doomed to disobey because of our perceived free will. Needless to say, he replied with something like, "Of course, I don't have all the answers." No, my good man, you don't.