(April 20, 2016 at 2:27 pm)abaris Wrote: So your position is to take a dump on idealism and ride with the likes of UKIP or Pegida? The same mindset by the way that gave us the bauties of the last century. Which was one of the reasons the community was started.

Wtf is a bauties?

I'm not taking a dump on idealism. I'm saying that favouring that instead of rationality is fucking dumb. The EU is a sinking ship. It is not functioning in a way that is beneficial enough to warrant the UK being part of it IMO, and in my view the UK would do a lot better out of it.

Saying you want a united Europe is fine. Trying to force it to happen in the current way is stupid. And the vote is about the EU as it currently stands, not what we idealistically want it to be.

(April 20, 2016 at 2:33 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Wtf is a bauties?

Oh, thanks for pointing out my typo.

And you might do well to do economics 101. Such as which benefits the UK would lose if leaving the EU. I highly doubt that the UK would do well in absence of all the subsidies it gets and with reintroduced duties on imports and exports. Just for starters. Someone would have to pay and you can bet your ass it's not uncle Dave and cronies.

(April 20, 2016 at 2:23 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(April 20, 2016 at 1:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I find what amounts to a wave of tribalism in Europe to be troubling.

What is more troubling is the idealism of people who want a 'united Europe'. It's not realistic.

Why?  Can't you people stop beating the drums?

I think the biggest mistake the EU made was expanding to include countries that were not ready.

(April 20, 2016 at 3:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Why?  Can't you people stop beating the drums?

It's not about can we. It's about are we?

Quote:I think the biggest mistake the EU made was expanding to include countries that were not ready.

Right. So we should carry on as another carriage on the train, that's inevitably going to add more carriages (Turkey, Macedonia etc) that may or may not be ready, in the midst of already having expanded to include countries that were not ready, all in the name of idealism?

Or we just recognise this project isn't working.

(April 20, 2016 at 2:41 pm)abaris Wrote: And you might do well to do economics 101. Such as which benefits the UK would lose if leaving the EU. I highly doubt that the UK would do well in absence of all the subsidies it gets and with reintroduced duties on imports and exports. Just for starters. Someone would have to pay and you can bet your ass it's not uncle Dave and cronies.

Ahh the old 'economics' argument. Fucking lel, not even entertaining this one. It's about all the pro-stay peeps use as an argument and it's about as worthwhile as me pulling my thumb out of my ass and using it to tell me which way the wind is blowing.

(April 20, 2016 at 3:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think the biggest mistake the EU made was expanding to include countries that were not ready.

Pretty much.

(April 20, 2016 at 3:27 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Ahh the old 'economics' argument. Fucking lel, not even entertaining this one. It's about all the pro-stay peeps use as an argument and it's about as worthwhile as me pulling my thumb out of my ass and using it to tell me which way the wind is blowing.

Alternatively you could pull another body part from the ass. But you will see soon enough. It's you tab, not mine. At least I hope it doesn't result in another crisis.

(April 20, 2016 at 3:45 pm)abaris Wrote: Alternatively you could pull another body part from the ass. But you will see soon enough. It's you tab, not mine. At least I hope it doesn't result in another crisis.

Another crisis? Look around. The EU is already in a crisis.

Greece is bankrupt and the rest of the EU has to bail them out of the shit. All the while we've got the biggest influx of migrants in how long? Ever? What kind of effect do you think this is going to have on the EU economy? It's not gonna make it any bloody better is it?

Baffles me how people can be so blind.

(April 20, 2016 at 2:29 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(April 20, 2016 at 12:11 pm)Mathilda Wrote: How is it radically different then?

Because one is a country voting to leave a politico-economic project made up of a huge variety of countries with wildly varying economies, cultures and languages, that has been going for less than 50 years. Another is a country leaving a sovereign state that it's been joined to for well over 300 years, that it shares a language, culture and the entirety of its laws with. 

Actually Scotland has a different legal system to England and Wales. It also has its own dialects in places, and an entirely different language in the highlands.

I don't see why 300 years is that much different to 50 years. North Italy is still poor because of Hannibal rampaging around it. These effects continue for many generations.

(April 20, 2016 at 3:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(April 20, 2016 at 2:23 pm)Napoléon Wrote: What is more troubling is the idealism of people who want a 'united Europe'. It's not realistic.

Why?  Can't you people stop beating the drums?

I think the biggest mistake the EU made was expanding to include countries that were not ready.

Why? It just isn't realistic and the EU is a sinking ship.

To me it's not just a matter if which is superior, in Europe or out, it's a matter of considering the probable effects of leaving and whether they are worth it. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know enough to say for sure, and it's always going to be somewhat subjective.

But to accept any consequences, for us and for the rest of the world, just because we want to be out, isn't good enough for me.

Of course, there may be a "horizon effect" of sorts going on (for those chess players among us).

So I'll try and do more research, to weight up the pros and cons. If my addled brain is up to it.