(May 8, 2016 at 7:16 am)SteveII Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 7:02 am)paulpablo Wrote: As I said in my post, most Christians become Christians because of bribery and threats of violence made to them as children.

Except the hundreds of millions who haven't.

Yeh there are exceptions who just find the message of Jesus a nice one to follow.  I'm talking about the global majority who are born into being Christians.

When people turn to a religion later in life, how well does it correlate with the religion they've been most exposed to? I guess it would correlate very highly. I don't know if figures are available for that.

(May 8, 2016 at 7:20 am)robvalue Wrote: Has anyone ever "come to Jesus" without having heard about him and the stories surrounding him for long periods?

I think not. The seeping in of ideas surrounding you is not surprising. People independently describing "meeting" Jesus, while isolated from any mention of him, would be surprising.

In short, people are very susceptible to the appeal to popularity fallacy. If many people seem to believe it, it appears a reasonable belief.

Yes, of course they have. As an example, Billy Graham has spoken to millions of people in large events specifically designed to reach unbelievers. They respond to the message by the thousands--many with discussions and conversions on the spot. People who do profess or who are interested in learning more are assigned to a local church for followup.

(May 8, 2016 at 8:10 am)SteveII Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 7:20 am)robvalue Wrote: Has anyone ever "come to Jesus" without having heard about him and the stories surrounding him for long periods?

I think not. The seeping in of ideas surrounding you is not surprising. People independently describing "meeting" Jesus, while isolated from any mention of him, would be surprising.

In short, people are very susceptible to the appeal to popularity fallacy. If many people seem to believe it, it appears a reasonable belief.

Yes, of course they have. As an example, Billy Graham has spoken to millions of people in large events specifically designed to reach unbelievers. They respond to the message by the thousands--many with discussions and conversions on the spot. People who do profess or who are interested in learning more are assigned to a local church for followup.

He means has anyone had a personal experience with Jesus, while never having come in contact with the message of Jesus or Christianity.

(May 8, 2016 at 7:24 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 7:16 am)SteveII Wrote: Except the hundreds of millions who haven't.

Yeh there are exceptions who just find the message of Jesus a nice one to follow.  I'm talking about the global majority who are born into being Christians.

So, how large does a pool have to be before hundreds of millions of people are not an exception? 

Okay, say we take the US statistic of 85% of Christians were born into a Christian home. You are claiming that these people only stay because of the "brainwashing" they received as children. The 15% adult conversions are exceptions. You are also concluding that the message that Christianity is a con (or however you want to characterize it) and science can prove it is not working on (319 million US population x 70.6% Christians = 225 million x 85% born into Christian homes) = 191 million people. And this is in the wealthiest country with cast amounts of information available to anyone with access to a computer (to say nothing about the education system's attempt to undermine faith). 

I don't think the numbers support your conclusion.

(May 8, 2016 at 8:19 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 8:10 am)SteveII Wrote: Yes, of course they have. As an example, Billy Graham has spoken to millions of people in large events specifically designed to reach unbelievers. They respond to the message by the thousands--many with discussions and conversions on the spot. People who do profess or who are interested in learning more are assigned to a local church for followup.

He means has anyone had a personal experience with Jesus, while never having come in contact with the message of Jesus or Christianity.

Rob specifically said "for long periods" and that is what I answered. 

If you are asking if the life and teachings of Jesus resonate with someone who has never heard anything about the life and teachings of Jesus, then no. 

Can God speak to someone's heart who will never hear the message?  I believe yes, but that interaction would be between God and that person and no one else is going to be able to comment/judge/deny on whether that is real or not.

(May 8, 2016 at 7:20 am)robvalue Wrote: Has anyone ever "come to Jesus" without having heard about him and the stories surrounding him for long periods?

I think not. The seeping in of ideas surrounding you is not surprising. People independently describing "meeting" Jesus, while isolated from any mention of him, would be surprising.

In short, people are very susceptible to the appeal to popularity fallacy. If many people seem to believe it, it appears a reasonable belief.

Regarding an appeal to popularity--perhaps for some this has an effect. However, in many families and locals of the world, it would be decidedly unpopular to become a Christian. It seems you are so convinced there must be extenuating circumstances an not the message itself to explain why Christianity is doing so well.

Alright fair enough, the "for long periods" would be the norm.

That part was unecessary. What I was getting at was whether they had "met Jesus" on their own, rather than just agreeing with a message someone else had told them. People can easily fool themselves into thinking they're having spiritual experiences, once they know what sort they're expected to have.

(May 8, 2016 at 8:30 am)SteveII Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 8:19 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: He means has anyone had a personal experience with Jesus, while never having come in contact with the message of Jesus or Christianity.

Rob specifically said "for long periods" and that is what I answered. 

If you are asking if the life and teachings of Jesus resonate with someone who has never heard anything about the life and teachings of Jesus, then no. 

Can God speak to someone's heart who will never hear the message?  I believe yes, but that interaction would be between God and that person and no one else is going to be able to comment/judge/deny on whether that is real or not.

Yes he wants to know how many people are finding Jesus without ever knowing anything about Christianity. If you are attending a Billy Graham event then you are being fed the Christian concepts and probably have some idea what Christianity is about, you are not coming to Jesus by any discovery of your own. 

What about all the people who have had a God talk to their heart and are not Christians, do you have any judgment about the reality of their god?

(May 8, 2016 at 8:25 am)SteveII Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 7:24 am)paulpablo Wrote: Yeh there are exceptions who just find the message of Jesus a nice one to follow.  I'm talking about the global majority who are born into being Christians.

So, how large does a pool have to be before hundreds of millions of people are not an exception? 

Okay, say we take the US statistic of 85% of Christians were born into a Christian home. You are claiming that these people only stay because of the "brainwashing" they received as children. The 15% adult conversions are exceptions. You are also concluding that the message that Christianity is a con (or however you want to characterize it) and science can prove it is not working on (319 million US population x 70.6% Christians = 225 million x 85% born into Christian homes) = 191 million people. And this is in the wealthiest country with cast amounts of information available to anyone with access to a computer (to say nothing about the education system's attempt to undermine faith). 

I don't think the numbers support your conclusion.

You just changed the topic there.

The question of the thread is "Why do Christians become Christians."

Now straight away you're saying I'm making a claim about why Christians STAY Christians.  No.  I was talking about the topic of the thread which is "Why do Christians become Christians."  My answer is threats of violence and bribery to children.

Why would you start a thread asking why Christians, globally become Christians, without giving a time reference.  Then totally change topic to talking about why Christians stay Christians, in this day and age, and use statistics only for America?

You then go onto say I'm saying Christianity is a con and science can prove it's not working on 191 million people?  From start to finish I have no idea what any of this means.  I don't know what you mean by Christianity "Working" you will have to be more clear on what you mean by that. I don't think you should bother explaining these things either unless they're directly related to the topic we're supposed to be talking about.

So just to be clear and to keep the thread on track instead of derailing it.

Why do Christians become Christians?  Because of threads of violence made towards Children, and bribery to Children.  Historically, globally I imagine this is how most Christians become Christians.