Why do Christians become Christians?

[drfuzzy]

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Well, here is a 2015 Pew study about religions in America - Pew Studies are pretty dependable.  http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanin...study.html



Evangelical numbers have held pretty steady in America, and Evangelicals are the only groups that have "gained more than they have lost".  
"Over the past seven years, evangelicals lost almost 8.5 percent of adherents and gained almost 10 percent for a net gain of 1.5 percent since 2007."

Of course, this doesn't talk about WHY adults would join a church.  It would be easy to propose that the "feel-good, warm and fuzzy, god will take care of you and bless you" messages coming from the Joel Osteens' and Megachurches might be appealing to some.  
    I don't see how you can dismiss "1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence."  I have friends who adore their "Megachurch family" and all of the social activities it provides.  They never mention Jesus.  I could name 3 that have told me that they believe the Bible is a bunch of motivational fables.
    I'm sure there are some adults who hear the story of Jesus dying for their sins, don't question it, and fall down sobbing on the altar.  I can't figure out why they would, but there are all types of people in the world.

And that "missionary success" bit has a lot more to do with feeding starving people while forcing them to listen to fairy tales, and then the children start believing those fairy tales - that's how it works.  Again, economic hardship, lack of education, and doing whatever it takes to survive.  And sure, some will grab onto that promise of heaven - the ultimate con.

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Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm curious about your friends. Did they grow up in the church or become Christians as adults?

 I don't know.  I can ask.  I THINK all three grew up Christian, but I'm not sure.

My point in response to your social reasons, is why evangelical churches? There are plenty of other churches who do not emphasis Jesus and thousands of organizations that could provide social interaction. As you put it, this choice comes with fables and fairy tales and someone else characterized it as a bunch of baggage.

 That's very true. I have wondered why a church and not the area community center classes, for example.  Inspirational stories?  The idea of an invisible sky-daddy taking care of you?  My young cousin was really involved with her church for a few years.  I had to ask her to stop claiming that God helped her with things like finding a close parking spot so she could buy a slushie without walking too far.     And I was wondering why the Unitarian Churches weren't mentioned.  They are nominally Jesus-ish . . . one Unitarian Minister friend I have claims that they are growing at an amazing rate.

Regarding missionaries, I'm sure what you described happens. But I think one would have to have more warrant than it seems you do to make a sweeping generalization like. I have been to India on a missions trip. The people we encountered and the local organization was not centered around feeding the hungry. It was centered around village churches with native pastors and a training school that could not keep up with teaching new pastors.

 True, I have not heard great stories about missionaries even when I was in the church.  I still sometimes play the organ for Mass at an area church that has an Indian priest.  He says that the seminaries are packed there.  It's quite a mystery.

[SteveII]

I am not trying to prove anything. I am defending the OP observation that adult (I am now clarifying) conversion to Christianity is based on what I wrote about Jesus and not 1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence.

Missionary conversion success illustrates that there must be something about the message that resonates with the person rather than 1) and 2) above.

So what is adult conversion to Islam based on, with 2) as the given?

It's clearly not the message when it doesn't seem to matter what the message is. It's the help. Come for the food and medicine, stay for the religion.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...ous-group/

The main reasons for Islam’s growth ultimately involve simple demographics. To begin with, Muslims have more children than members of the seven other major religious groups analyzed in the study. Each Muslim woman has an average of 3.1 children, significantly above the next-highest group (Christians at 2.7) and the average of all non-Muslims (2.3). In all major regions where there is a sizable Muslim population, Muslim fertility exceeds non-Muslim fertility.

The growth of the Muslim population also is helped by the fact that Muslims have the youngest median age (23 in 2010) of all major religious groups, seven years younger than the median age of non-Muslims (30). A larger share of Muslims will soon be at the point in their lives when people begin having children. This, combined with high fertility rates, will accelerate Muslim population growth.

Do you a link that shows data on adult conversions to Islam?

[brewer]

If I'm wired to believe can I make up my own fantasy? One that, for me, is better than the man made christian fantasy? You know that's how any of this god shit starts, right? OK here goes.

I live the best life that I can, balancing the good with the bad, each in it's own measure for the time. No matter how my life turns out in the end, I (at least pieces) wind up in a jar of formaldehyde on Valk's mantel. She pulls me out every so often to perform experiments and then what ever is left goes back to the jar. That's the reward!

BTW, no one else gets to join, the mantel is not big enough. Go away!

[Mudhammam]

So your answer is that more and more people every year, for 2000 years, are either 1) not concerned about the truth, 2) deceived and fail to detect the deception. 

Yes.

Your statement that Christianity contains "overwhelming examples of division, egotism, theological hatreds, and falsehoods, which tend to be indistinguishable from the utterly delusional" does not line up with the teachings of the NT (and therefore not Christian).

Sure it does. First and foremost, the NT wholly and devoutly sanctions the Old Testament as expressive of God's holy thought on terrestrial matters, which includes such gems of bigotry as Psalm 14:1 and the countless instances in which apostates and blasphemers are sentenced to be executed. This mindset is clearly seen to carry over into the New Law, where Jesus and his followers condemned all those who disbelieve in God or the Christ to eternal torment, or as Paul puts it: "Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." So, on top of the fact that these bigoted texts found in the OT and NT equate atheism with total wickedness and greediness/thievery/swindling/verbal abuse with homosexuality (the author clearly knows a thing or two about verbal abuse), it also condemns anyone who rejects the proclaimed "anointed one" to everlasting suffering after death. What you should have said, then, is that I meant this:

So, in fact you are talking about individuals who exhibit these qualities inspired by what it means to be a Christian according to the Old and New Testaments.

In general, you are ascribing motives and reasons for people's beliefs when in reality, you do not and cannot know.

I can know about as well as you can, as you clearly presumed to know in the OP.

[robvalue]

I don't get the point of this.

I'm reading it as, "It's understandable people get drawn into this cult. It doesn't make them dumb."

I agree with that. It's totally understandable. It doesn't necessarily make them dumb at all. The tactics that are employed to hook people in range from devious to downright harmful. If there is another message here that isn't just an appeal to popularity, I don't know what it is. We could just as easily be discussing a confidence trickster.

Is this another "I'm not crazy for believing this" attempt? I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of theists are here to convince themselves of this.

[TubbyTubby]

So what is adult conversion to Islam based on, with 2) as the given?

It's clearly not the message when it doesn't seem to matter what the message is. It's the help. Come for the food and medicine, stay for the religion.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...ous-group/

The main reasons for Islam’s growth ultimately involve simple demographics. To begin with, Muslims have more children than members of the seven other major religious groups analyzed in the study. Each Muslim woman has an average of 3.1 children, significantly above the next-highest group (Christians at 2.7) and the average of all non-Muslims (2.3). In all major regions where there is a sizable Muslim population, Muslim fertility exceeds non-Muslim fertility.

The growth of the Muslim population also is helped by the fact that Muslims have the youngest median age (23 in 2010) of all major religious groups, seven years younger than the median age of non-Muslims (30). A larger share of Muslims will soon be at the point in their lives when people begin having children. This, combined with high fertility rates, will accelerate Muslim population growth.

Do you a link that shows data on adult conversions to Islam?

You are probably right--a bias will form. Is your assertion that faith is a direct result of locale and upbringing? That does not make sense if at least 15% of Christians (in the US) become so as adults nor does it explain the tremendous growth of Christianity in Africa and China (which would presumably be a much higher rate of adult conversion. 

It seem like more of an opinion rather than a fact that Christians should just "accept".

So Islam growth is caused by parents/indoctrination/locale but christians are a bit more discerning?

[robvalue]

Haha, right.

The correct God has almost zero persuasive power to people born in predominantly Muslim countries. That says it all, really. What we see would be more accurately modelled by several entities rather than one, all having localised areas of influence.

Christians would have no need to indoctrinate their children, right

Apparently they do, or they lose out on the arms race.

[robvalue]

I imagine the gods all playing a game of Risk.

Finally Yahweh rolls a fistful of sixes, and gets some of his influence points into China, which is poorly defended.

[Angrboda]

One aspect of this that hasn't been discussed is the fact that religious belief is inversely proportional to both socioeconomic class and education. One can think what one wills about the implications of that, but it would seem to imply that the poor and the ignorant find the message of Christ more appealing. If the message is so popular, why does it appeal most to the downtrodden? That sounds to me like the beliefs take advantage of the vulnerabilities of a distressed population. So it is not simply that the message is appealing, but that the message is appealing to certain types and for specific reasons. Otherwise that message would appeal unilaterally to all classes.

While it may be a non sequitur in this thread, it bears emphasizing that because a message is appealing doesn't make it any more likely to be true. Indeed, the appeal of the message may instead of marking a sign of truthfulness, signal a departure from reality. It's easier to make promises if you don't have to stick to the truth.

[robvalue]

Exactly right. I don't know why it's so important to Steve that the message is appealing, except to set up an excuse for himself in case he's just talking to no one.