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Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?

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Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
KUSA Offline
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#121
Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 10:42 am
(May 19, 2016 at 4:01 pm)AgnosticMan123 Wrote: I want to be convinced totally that there is not a God.

Then purge your mind of stupid thoughts.
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wiploc Offline
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#122
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 11:22 am
(May 20, 2016 at 6:03 am)Stimbo Wrote:
(May 20, 2016 at 12:35 am)wiploc Wrote: You've got me curious.  Could you elaborate?

Sure. The entry-level atheist position is "not a theist". Since it's a response to theistic claims of belief in one or more gods, atheism straight out of the box means not accepting those claims prima facie. It's the position of "show me what you got and I'll consider it". As such it carries no burden of proof, as the atheist isn't trying to prove anything. Everything else, from the weak/strong modifiers to the seven-point scale, is an attempt to qualify the degree to which the atheism is applied, and may carry a burden of proof depending on the level of positive claims being made.

Thanks.  I don't agree, but thanks for explaining.
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Cyberman Away
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#123
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 11:34 am
What don't you agree with?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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Ravenshire Offline Donators
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#124
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 12:18 pm
(May 19, 2016 at 4:01 pm)AgnosticMan123 Wrote:
(May 19, 2016 at 2:55 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: The bolded sentence is the definition of an atheist.  

But hey, nobody can force you to call yourself anything; you can use whatever label you feel comfortable with.  It's just that when you're talking about the concepts and ideas behind the words it's important to be clear.  From the words that you've used, I would call you an agnostic atheist (like most people here).  That means you don't accept the claim "A god exists" but you also DONT make the claim "A god does not exist."
Maybe it comes down to your source.

My source says they (atheist and agnostic) are two different things.

I want to be convinced totally that there is not a God.

Being red and being wet are two different things but a red diving target at the bottom of a pool is wet. Things being different does not make them mutually exclusive.

If you want to be convinced there is no christer gawd, simply look at the logical inconsistencies (ex. perfectly just and perfectly merciful). If you wish to be absolutely convinced that there is no possibility of any god that can possibly be dreamed up... Good luck. You can no more disprove an ethereal god that hides behind the curtain than you can disprove fairies, elves and unicorns.
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wiploc Offline
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#125
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 12:58 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2016 at 12:59 pm by wiploc.)
(May 20, 2016 at 6:53 am)Ben Davis Wrote:
(May 19, 2016 at 4:57 pm)AgnosticMan123 Wrote: My source says that atheist means one who believes that there isn't a God.

Just so you know, that's not 'atheism', that's of 'antitheism' (a.k.a. strong/gnostic atheism).

As an antitheist to every type of god that's yet been proposed (but agnostic towards the deistic types of god), I could have a go at persuading you but first you'll have to define your god.

Don't conflate those; they are three different things. 

Antitheists are against theism.  They think it would be better if theists deconverted.

Gnostics know (or think they know) whether gods exist.  You can't be a gnostic weak atheist, because that would mean you knew something without believing it.  So any gnostic atheist is a strong atheist, specifically one who believes gods do not exist, and who also knows (or thinks she knows) that gods do not exist. 

Strong atheism is just believing that gods do not exist.
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#126
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 1:07 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2016 at 1:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 20, 2016 at 12:58 pm)wiploc Wrote: Antitheists are against theism.  They think it would be better if theists deconverted.
Or simply kept that shit to themselves.  I mean really, really thought about all of the ways they need to keep that shit to themselves.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Ravenshire Offline Donators
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#127
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 2:59 pm
(May 19, 2016 at 6:51 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:
(May 19, 2016 at 6:09 pm)JeffLesPaul Wrote: I guess "submit" was a bad word. But, IF that God is the SAME God as described from the Bible then you would either have to submit or have your ass kicked for eternity since God just happens to be an asshole. So you either fight the living God who made you, or submit or get to be at peace...I think the choice is clear. This isn't like not getting a credit card because you don't like the high interest rates. And it certainly would not be a "standing up against the bully" thing since the bully has power over your life and all afterlife.


Can you imagine what kind of hell it would be, to kiss the ass of a god for eternity, knowing that the vast majority of all humanity that ever existed is being punished for eternity for a thought crime?

Sorry, but I'll take my punishment, knowing that I am more moral than this god.

When the curse is eternity, the initial conditions hardly matter.
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Mister Agenda Offline Donators
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#128
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 5:43 pm
AgnosticMan123 Wrote:
FatAndFaithless Wrote:The bolded sentence is the definition of an atheist.  

But hey, nobody can force you to call yourself anything; you can use whatever label you feel comfortable with.  It's just that when you're talking about the concepts and ideas behind the words it's important to be clear.  From the words that you've used, I would call you an agnostic atheist (like most people here).  That means you don't accept the claim "A god exists" but you also DONT make the claim "A god does not exist."
Maybe it comes down to your source.

My source says they (atheist and agnostic) are two different things.

I want to be convinced totally that there is not a God.

You want to be convinced of a universal negative? I don't think anyone can help you with that. Unless you specify which version of God you want us to disprove, some of them are subject to disproof. The God of theodicy doesn't exist because it has contradictory attributes. The God that flooded the earth to the mountain tops and stopped the sun in the sky for the convenience of a Hebrew army doesn't exist because those things didn't happen. The God of Deism neither has contradictory attributes nor historical claims that can be proven false. The only reason not to believe that God is real is that there isn't any good reason to think it really is real.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#129
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 5:48 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2016 at 5:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There's another reason, another way to go with it.  It's reasonable to conclude that god (even the deist god) is not what the claimants propose it to be, if, for example...you can establish that it's something else entirely.  That the very concept of "god" is misattribution, in effect.  Real in the sense that god or gods demonstrably exist as something, but not as the thing they are proposed to be.

Namely, separate from our own psyches.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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ignoramus Offline
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#130
RE: Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?
May 20, 2016 at 6:07 pm
That won't work. They've been sold on the book alone.
They qualify for an afterlife now... Can't ask for more than that. No need to rock any boats.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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Can you persuade me from Agnostic to Atheist?

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