(May 24, 2016 at 12:22 pm)dyresand Wrote: Yeah you are using a argument from contingency you should really google that. 

=) No need to google it. This is how I would argue from contingency in the sense that you think I am doing it. (continued here and here and basically that whole thread)

Quote:Yes a all knowing god would know every single possible outcome because if said being knows everything it means said being knows everything including possible outcomes. 

How? According to you, an all-knowing god means that there are NO possible outcomes, but only the actual ones he knows will happen. I think it is clear that you are bright, but have just now considered this distinction.

You answered well, an all-knowing god knows every single possible outcomes... BECAUSE THEY ARE TRULY POSSIBLE (and therefore, contingent)

Quote:No not it is not to say that a dice roll is contingent that would mean the dice roll would have already happened but in reality a dice roll is subjective to chance. There is a one in sixth chance that it will land on a specific number. If i were to roll a dice and it were to land on 4 then a few moments later i can say that dice roll is contingent because it already happened and said dice roll cannot change.

1) A 1/6 chance is the mathematical expression for: "6 possible outcomes for a single roll". A 1/6 chance is the mathematical definition of contingency. If you know ahead of time that there is a 1/6 chance you will roll a 4, then, by definition, the roll is contingent.

2) I am not sure we have a common understanding of the word "contingent"

(May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm)dyresand Wrote: Scenario -  Okay god makes the garden of eden tells two jerk offs named adam and eve they eat everything just not from this tree. 

Wait, is this the one where humanity is forever cursed with original sin?

Quote:So premise god is all knowing he already knows whats going to happen they eat tree anyway. Humanity is forever cursed with original sin.

It IS that one!! Quick question about the premise... does he also know every other possible outcome? In other words, are there different ways in which this whole thing could have gone down in which humanity is NOT forever cursed with original sin?

Quote:The fruit in their case if those two people existed it would be the case of necessity not contingently.

That simply does not follow from your premise. You can claim this all you want, but until you give me a reason to believe why an all-knowing god means that contingency is impossible, I will continue to reject this claim (because I have reasons to accept the exact opposite).

Quote:They ate from a tree because a talking snaked talked them into it. This was before they had any free will they take orders from anything that could talk.

Say what? This story is taking a turn for the worse

Quote:Then even then what's the point there is no point if free will was a gift that gift is cursed and that gift is contingently unnecessary

I don't understand this sentence.

Quote:What's the point of knowing everything knowing every single outcome and giving humans the illusion of free will... there is no point other than were just some pawns to said being were just toys to it and nothing more. 

Right... OR! maybe... just maybe... the real illusion is your understanding of contingency and free will. 

I could keep arguing that the argument from contingency doesn't work i really can but i wont i refuse too.
Foreknowledge and free will are not compatibly again i will say that with a all knowing god he/she/it has foreknowledge
there for we don't have free will. Contingency meaning stuff already has happened and will happen because the future already
exists there for there is no such thing as free will rather the illusion of it.

(May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm)dyresand Wrote: What's the point of knowing everything knowing every single outcome and giving humans the illusion of free will...

Oh, I now see the problem.

Omniscience alone is not a deterrent to free will.

I mean, a psychic, if one was to ever truly exist, could know something about someone's future, but in the end does the psychic actually have any control over ensuring that future happens?

Omniscience is not the same as being a puppet master.

However, since theists are fond of stating that god is omnipotent, therein lies the problem. If anything, we should be complaining that god does not prevent a child from being raped by her father. He is omnipotent, after all. Omnipotence carries a heftier responsibility than mere omniscience.

In the end, I understand that religion has no claim to free will whatsoever. In the end, the one important claim for which religion needs to answer is omnipotence of its supposed god.

(May 24, 2016 at 7:11 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:

(May 24, 2016 at 6:32 pm)dyresand Wrote: What's the point of knowing everything knowing every single outcome and giving humans the illusion of free will...

Oh, I now see the problem.

Omniscience alone is not a deterrent to free will.

I mean, a psychic, if one was to ever truly exist, could know something about someone's future, but in the end does the psychic actually have any control over ensuring that future happens?

Omniscience is not the same as being a puppet master.

However, since theists are fond of stating that god is omnipotent, therein lies the problem.  If anything, we should be complaining that god does not prevent a child from being raped by her father.  He is omnipotent, after all.  Omnipotence carries a heftier responsibility than mere omniscience.  

In the end, I understand that religion has no claim to free will whatsoever.  In the end, the one important claim for which religion needs to answer is omnipotence of its supposed god.

Then the case is god doesn't care enough about humans to help us out since we are already solving the issue of suffering.

(May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm)dyresand Wrote: I could keep arguing that the argument from contingency doesn't work i really can but i wont i refuse too.

I believe you. There is also no need to, this isn't the argument from contingency.

Quote:Foreknowledge and free will are not compatibly again i will say that with a all knowing god he/she/it has foreknowledge
there for we don't have free will.

You can say it as many times as you'd like. It is still not convincing if you don't give reasons for me to accept it.

Quote:Contingency meaning stuff already has happened and will happen because the future already exists there for there is no such thing as free will rather the illusion of it.

That is fine if that is what you mean by contingency, but it isn't what I mean (and most people). So I won't use the term anymore.

You have already said that an all-knowing being knows BOTH the things that actually happen, and the things that are possible, but don't happen. If he know the things that are possible-but-don't-happen, then they must be REAL possibilities.

If god knows all 6 possible outcomes of a rolled-die, AND he knows the actual single outcome of a rolled-die, then the 6 possibilities, and the 1 actual outcome are both real. If they are both real, then god's omniscience does not destroy the reality of the 6 possibilities, as possibilities.

Does that mean the free-will is real? NO!

What does it mean? It means that omniscience/omnipotence is compatible with multiple outcomes which depend on different conditions and circumstances.

If there is an all-knowing god, do I still have a 1/6 chance to roll a 3 with a 6-sided-die? YES!

Fuckin' hell, Shadow Man's like a robot isn't he?

[Insert name here]

Blablablabla

Regards,

Shadow Man

Rinse and repeat.

Maelstrom Wrote:Omniscience alone is not a deterrent to free will.

What do you mean "deterrent" to free will"?

If we are speaking libertarian/contra-causal/incompatabilist free will, omniscience is a sufficient but not necessary refutation of it... Not necessary because that kind of free will is logically incoherent anyway... But sufficient because you can't do otherwise other than one course of action if you are truly accurately omnisciently known to take it.

(May 25, 2016 at 1:37 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(May 24, 2016 at 7:09 pm)dyresand Wrote: I could keep arguing that the argument from contingency doesn't work i really can but i wont i refuse too.

I believe you. There is also no need to, this isn't the argument from contingency.

Quote:Foreknowledge and free will are not compatibly again i will say that with a all knowing god he/she/it has foreknowledge
there for we don't have free will.

You can say it as many times as you'd like. It is still not convincing if you don't give reasons for me to accept it.

Quote:Contingency meaning stuff already has happened and will happen because the future already exists there for there is no such thing as free will rather the illusion of it.

That is fine if that is what you mean by contingency, but it isn't what I mean (and most people). So I won't use the term anymore.

You have already said that an all-knowing being knows BOTH the things that actually happen, and the things that are possible, but don't happen. If he know the things that are possible-but-don't-happen, then they must be REAL possibilities.

If god knows all 6 possible outcomes of a rolled-die, AND he knows the actual single outcome of a rolled-die, then the 6 possibilities, and the 1 actual outcome are both real. If they are both real, then god's omniscience does not destroy the reality of the 6 possibilities, as possibilities.

Does that mean the free-will is real? NO!

What does it mean? It means that omniscience/omnipotence is compatible with multiple outcomes which depend on different conditions and circumstances.

If there is an all-knowing god, do I still have a 1/6 chance to roll a 3 with a 6-sided-die? YES!

So, God rolls the dice knowing which way they will fall ... but the dice have a choice ??

(May 25, 2016 at 5:08 am)Spinchance Wrote: So, God rolls the dice knowing which way they will fall ... but the dice have a choice ??

Who said anything about choice?