(June 5, 2016 at 9:24 am)SteveII Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 9:15 am)mh.brewer Wrote: So both "the book is on the table" and "sun always rises" are conditional, therefore subjective, therefore relative. "on" in your statement is the qualifier.

Wow. How did you come to that conclusion? "On" can be verified as either true or not true. "Always" cannot. Setting aside the fact that the sun does not rise in relation to the earth, we know that the earth did not "always" experience a sunrise. What about before the earth, the solar system, the galaxy? What about the future? We know that the sun will eventually burn out--no sunrise then. So no, truth is not subjective nor relative.

"On" is conditional upon gravity. Is there an "on" in zero gravity/zero force application? "On" is conditional upon the substance of the table and book. What you previously considered true was conditional, subjective and relative.

Every statement is conditional upon the language/format used to express it, as well as any assumptions that have been made.

If there are "naked truths", we can't express them as such.

(June 5, 2016 at 9:46 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 9:24 am)SteveII Wrote: Wow. How did you come to that conclusion? "On" can be verified as either true or not true. "Always" cannot. Setting aside the fact that the sun does not rise in relation to the earth, we know that the earth did not "always" experience a sunrise. What about before the earth, the solar system, the galaxy? What about the future? We know that the sun will eventually burn out--no sunrise then. So no, truth is not subjective nor relative.

"On" is conditional upon gravity. Is there an "on" in zero gravity/zero force application? "On" is conditional upon the substance of the table and book. What you previously considered true was conditional, subjective and relative.

Gravitational force has a direct relationship with mass. That relationship is objective. Just because a proposition contains a relationtional statement that does not meant the truth value of that proposition is subjective.

(June 5, 2016 at 9:46 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 9:24 am)SteveII Wrote: Wow. How did you come to that conclusion? "On" can be verified as either true or not true. "Always" cannot. Setting aside the fact that the sun does not rise in relation to the earth, we know that the earth did not "always" experience a sunrise. What about before the earth, the solar system, the galaxy? What about the future? We know that the sun will eventually burn out--no sunrise then. So no, truth is not subjective nor relative.

"On" is conditional upon gravity. Is there an "on" in zero gravity/zero force application? "On" is conditional upon the substance of the table and book. What you previously considered true was conditional, subjective and relative.

"The book is on the table" specifically references the present time. "The sun always rises" specifically references all time. "On" is a preposition that describes the table. "Always" is an adverb modifying the verb rises. Either every part of the sentence is true and therefore the sentence is true, or if one thing is false, the whole sentence is false. If indeed the book is on the table, that statement is true. The sentence "The sun always rises" will never be a true statement.

(June 5, 2016 at 9:48 am)robvalue Wrote: Every statement is conditional upon the language/format used to express it, as well as any assumptions that have been made.

If there are "naked truths", we can't express them as such.

I think it's more than language, I think it's concept. Use pictures, images, symbols, anything. Your conception of truth may not be the same as mine, therefore relative/subjective. The only way that we could both have the exact same conception of truth(s) would be to have the same brain. Fortunately for you, that is not an option.

(June 5, 2016 at 10:06 am)SteveII Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 9:46 am)mh.brewer Wrote: "On" is conditional upon gravity. Is there an "on" in zero gravity/zero force application? "On" is conditional upon the substance of the table and book. What you previously considered true was conditional, subjective and relative.

"The book is on the table" specifically references the present time. "The sun always rises" specifically references all time. "On" is a preposition that describes the table. "Always" is an adverb modifying the verb rises. Either every part of the sentence is true and therefore the sentence is true, or if one thing is false, the whole sentence is false. If indeed the book is on the table, that statement is true. The sentence "The sun always rises" will never be a true statement.

Fine, take out always. "The sun rises". Continue.

The book and table are both negatively ionized. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.
The book and table are hanging by wires but touching. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.

(June 5, 2016 at 10:05 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 9:46 am)mh.brewer Wrote: "On" is conditional upon gravity. Is there an "on" in zero gravity/zero force application? "On" is conditional upon the substance of the table and book. What you previously considered true was conditional, subjective and relative.

Gravitational force has a direct relationship with mass. That relationship is objective. Just because a proposition contains a relationtional statement that does not meant the truth value of that proposition is subjective.

As far as I'm concerned, yes it does. Therefore truth between you and I has now been made subjective.

The book is a fact. The table is a fact. Tomorrow the book will still be a book and the table will still be a table. The book is on the table is true. If I move the book to a chair, it is no longer true that the book is on the table, but it is still a fact that the book is a book and the table is a table. Facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective.

(June 5, 2016 at 10:17 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 10:06 am)SteveII Wrote: "The book is on the table" specifically references the present time. "The sun always rises" specifically references all time. "On" is a preposition that describes the table. "Always" is an adverb modifying the verb rises. Either every part of the sentence is true and therefore the sentence is true, or if one thing is false, the whole sentence is false. If indeed the book is on the table, that statement is true. The sentence "The sun always rises" will never be a true statement.

Fine, take out always. "The sun rises". Continue.

The book and table are both negatively ionized. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.
The book and table are hanging by wires but touching. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.

I don't quite know what your point about the sun rising is. Are you trying to deliberately fine an example where the meaning of the verb is not really the meaning we ascribe to the sun's movement? If so, you are merely pointing out word choices and are not proving any point about whether a truth is relative or absolute. The sun does not rise, never has and never will. It does not change anything if you say and I understand what you mean that the sun will rise tomorrow. 

Regarding the book, "on" has a definition. The book being on the table is either true or not. No subjectivity. If you start talking about "negative ions" "gravity" and other analysis of the word "on", you are merely defining the word. The burden of defining all the words in every sentence we say or write would become unbearable--that's why we came up with the word on to represent that concept.

(June 5, 2016 at 1:33 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 5, 2016 at 10:17 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Fine, take out always. "The sun rises". Continue.

The book and table are both negatively ionized. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.
The book and table are hanging by wires but touching. They are not "on" each other. You statement is not true.

I don't quite know what your point about the sun rising is. Are you trying to deliberately fine an example where the meaning of the verb is not really the meaning we ascribe to the sun's movement? If so, you are merely pointing out word choices and are not proving any point about whether a truth is relative or absolute. The sun does not rise, never has and never will. It does not change anything if you say and I understand what you mean that the sun will rise tomorrow. 

Regarding the book, "on" has a definition. The book being on the table is either true or not. No subjectivity. If you start talking about "negative ions" "gravity" and other analysis of the word "on", you are merely defining the word. The burden of defining all the words in every sentence we say or write would become unbearable--that's why we came up with the word on to represent that concept.

You didn't like "always" so I eliminated it. Now you don't like "rises". For anyone that would have considered either sentence a "truth" (and I know some) by your own comments you have shown that "truth" can be subjective and relative.

So, there ya go. Truth is subjective and relative based on conditional definition(s).

I'm not sure I understand why you resist. Is the concept of subjective truth life altering for you?

We don't have to agree, but by doing so that makes truth subjective.