In the Bible, Jesus is VERY descriptive of how to tell who is a believer in him.

Mark 16:15-20 (King James Version) Wrote:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

This isnt from the mouth of Peter, or Paul. No. These words are direct from Christ Jesus's mouth himself

#1 - He tells his desciples to go out into the world and preach to every creature
#2 - That you must believe in Jesus and be baptised to be saved.
#3 - In the name of Jesus you will cast out devils
#4 - You will speak "with new tongues"
#5 - They shall take up serpents
#6 - They can drink deadly things and not be hurt by them
#7 - They can lay their hands on sick people and those people will recover

Many Christians realize that this list does not work for them, to which they will say "This was only the description of the apostles, not the other believers in Christ." That is not true and contrary to what Christ is quoted as saying. The people who say that obviously do not show the signs and have the lying tongue of satan on their hearts, for it SURELY say in verse Mark 16:17

Quote:17And these signs shall follow them that believe;

Not just following the apostles that believe, but following THEM that believe, as in if YOU believe, then these signs SHALL follow you.

Another thing, Jesus does not say that some believers will have some signs, and others will have others. Jesus is VERY specific that those who believe, and are baptised, will be able to do ALL of the signs ALL of the time. Not some times, not just on Sundays. He doesnt say "SOME will lay on hands and SOME will cast out devils." Jesus is very specific in his list. Jesus is also very unambiguous (well, except for the "tongues" part)

Does Jesus say that only SOMETIMES they can drink deadly things and it not hurt them? Absolutely not! It flat out says that if you are a believer and baptised, you can dring deadly things and not be hurt. Period. Its on ALL the time. Not just on Easter. Not just for certain kinds of poisons. You should be able to drink radioactive water from Japan and not be hurt by it if you are a REAL believer in Jesus and have been baptised.

Are you a true believer? Or will you spend the rest of this thread trying to prove that Christ Jesus was a liar and that YOU know what it means to be a Christian, and that the list of proofs of being a Christian from Christ himself are lies, mistakes, and mistranslations...or whatever excuse you want to give. To deny this list is to deny the Ascension of Christ. This list was EXTREMELY important to Christ, and he gave the list out as his last words on Earth, and then Ascended into heaven in front of all of those whom he gave the list to. This is significant if you consider yourself a Christian.

Yep, no problem with any of that.

Mark 16:15-20 (New International Version, ©2011)

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Still we have to work out what is actually being said in the context of the time it's said. For that we need to get into the mindset of someone from the ancient middle east. Otherwise you're not being true to the text. Jesus never spoke literally as you're stating, but always figuratively. All of the things listed are to be likened to the experiences of a believer. They are never admonishments to do those things literally, as that would be to contradict other teachings of Jesus... (don't tempt God/ drink poison?) where a literal translation would fail and a faithful translation would find consistent.

(April 21, 2011 at 2:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yep, no problem with any of that.

I figured you would see the meaning to this, being an agnostic and all. But until we see you cast some devils out, then Jesus doesnt think you are a christian.

(April 21, 2011 at 2:18 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(April 21, 2011 at 2:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yep, no problem with any of that.

I figured you would see the meaning to this, being an agnostic and all. But until we see you cast some devils out, then Jesus doesnt think you are a christian.

Can banning an atheist from a Christian Forum be considered casting out a devil? Cause I gotta tell you, I don't know where these poor christians are even going to FIND a devil?!?! Maybe it was easy finding devils in Jesus' time but finding one today has gotta be just a bitch-of-a-thing to do.

(April 21, 2011 at 1:54 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: #1 - He tells his desciples to go out into the world and preach to every creature

Cool, no problem.

Quote:#2 - That you must believe in Jesus and be baptised to be saved.

Cool, no problem.

Quote:#3 - In the name of Jesus you will cast out devils

What is a 'devil' in this context? And what does it mean to 'cast one [a devil] out'? Ask yourself these questions and you may find yourself on the right track.

Quote:#4 - You will speak "with new tongues"

What is meant here by 'tongues'? I must admit that, since becoming a Christian again, my manner of speaking has changed quite drastically. Maybe that's what is meant here.

Quote:#5 - They shall take up serpents

I can't put this in context, so I'm not quite sure what is meant here. I'll have to read the passage and do some research before I 'get' it.

Quote:#6 - They can drink deadly things and not be hurt by them

I believe this.

Quote:#7 - They can lay their hands on sick people and those people will recover

See #5

Quote:#1 - He tells his desciples to go out into the world and preach to every creature
#2 - That you must believe in Jesus and be baptised to be saved.
#3 - In the name of Jesus you will cast out devils
#4 - You will speak "with new tongues"
#5 - They shall take up serpents
#6 - They can drink deadly things and not be hurt by them
#7 - They can lay their hands on sick people and those people will recover

Where does Bingo come in? That seems like a large part of being a xtian.

(April 21, 2011 at 1:54 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Another thing, Jesus does not say that some believers will have some signs, and others will have others. Jesus is VERY specific that those who believe, and are baptised, will be able to do ALL of the signs ALL of the time. Not some times, not just on Sundays. He doesnt say "SOME will lay on hands and SOME will cast out devils." Jesus is very specific in his list. Jesus is also very unambiguous (well, except for the "tongues" part).

After reading the verses, it seems to me that they are being addressed only to a specific group of Christians who lived during that time, not for ALL times. There is nothing to indicate that all Christians have to do those things. Rather, it says "they shall" cast out devils, take up servants, drink deadly things, and speak in new tongues.

The word "they" doesn't necessarily mean "all" Christians, does it?

Mark 16:15-20 Wrote:And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

And this is in past tense, which means that the verse is describing certain events which already happened. Therefore, it is more reasonable to look at all of this from a historical context.

I find it fascinating that believers and skeptics alike can read books as contradictory as the Bible and the Qur'an,and claim to understand
what they 'really' mean.

There are hundreds of sects within those faiths,each sect claiming some unique transcendent truth. Adherents to different sects have been killing each other for centuries over differences in interpretation.

It seems clear to me that works called "revealed truths" are anything but clear and unambiguous. If they were,surely there would be little if any disagreement?

I think it can also be argued that a god giving instructions would be clear and precise. That the books are not is any another fairly strong indication they were written by a bunch of fairly ordinary,and sometimes deluded* blokes. They reflect their times. (I won't even start on the howlers about Science)

*EG In my opinion,the writers known as John of Patmos were either clinically insane or under the influence of some hallucinogen when they wrote The Book Of Revelations.

(April 21, 2011 at 8:11 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

Mark 16:15-20 Wrote:And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

And this is in past tense, which means that the verse is describing certain events which already happened. Therefore, it is more reasonable to look at all of this from a historical context.

Now make that work with this:

Quote:17And these signs shall follow them that believe

He isnt talking about just the apostles, or just their time frame. He is making a generalized statement of EVERYONE who believes. Also, When I look at the verse you use, it merely speaks of the apostles going out and proving the signs, therefore proving that they are believers. Of course, I always thought that verse you put up to be very sloppy, and poorly written. Its anticlimatic and sophomoric when it comes to literature. Now that I have shown this, the verse you have posted merely looks as a statement of fact (as far as fact is concerned in fictional writing) once you see it in context with the other verse that clearly says these signs will follow them (not just the apostles) who believe.

Of course, that said, it is believed that the original version of Mark 16 ended at verse eight, and that the next twelve verses were later additions.