(June 8, 2016 at 10:41 pm)Adam Blackstar Wrote: Of course then you get into the apologist assertion that ALL morality is religious morality because without God there would be no standard of good and we would all just be out mindlessly raping each other.

I have never understood that argument, as I have never seen a consistent religious morality. They not only differ from sect to sect, person to person but from century to century.

Its like saying their can be no objectivity without Cinderella, in fact I know as much about her morality than any religion 

Lol yeah...

Except I wasn't raised in any religion, and I do just fine. And England is full of irreligious bastards, but it's not the blood fuck fest you would imagine from such statements. So who is it for?

Either the "being religious" requirement is irrelevant, or else God has implanted the morality in us and we're good to go. So again, it's irrelevant.

To me, it's obviously an attempt to explain the fact that we aren't all bashing each others' faces in, when we have "no reason not to". Except we do have a reason not to: empathy. It's a much simpler explanation. We didn't understand this in the past, so the appeal to magic was somewhat understandable. I hate the implication that is sometimes made that we are all basically psycopaths, and need religion to keep us leashed. Some people really believe that about themselves. And I highly doubt it's true in most cases.

And unfortunately, immorality sometimes gets mixed in as well, such as prejudice against certain groups. So it's obvious morality, but warped into something worse.

The only card such theists have left to play is circular definitions of morality, in order to exclude anyone not agreeing with their religious morality.

This isn't all theists, by any stretch. I'm talking about some, who make such overreaching claims about the morality of their religion.

(June 8, 2016 at 4:29 am)Ignorant Wrote: Hello all, I was wondering if some of you would be willing to share what you think about the story of the "Prodigal Son"? All thoughts are welcome. Thanks! 

A man had two sons, and the younger son said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of your estate that should come to me.' So the father divided the property between them.

After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation. When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need. So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine. And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any. 

Coming to his senses he thought, 'How many of my father's hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger. I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers."' So he got up and went back to his father. 

While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him. His son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.' But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast, because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.' Then the celebration began. 

Now the older son had been out in the field and, on his way back, as he neared the house, he heard the sound of music and dancing. He called one of the servants and asked what this might mean. The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.' He became angry, and when he refused to enter the house, his father came out and pleaded with him. 

He said to his father in reply, 'Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders; yet you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends. But when your son returns who swallowed up your property with prostitutes, for him you slaughter the fattened calf.' 

He said to him, 'My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours. But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.'
-Luke 15:11-32

I had a Christian explain that story to me as a story that affirmed his belief that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Satan is the prodigal son in the story.

I don't know how common a belief that is, but it was his belief.

(June 8, 2016 at 4:48 am)Alex K Wrote: Several thoughts

- The father's reaction is understandable and justified. His one son was obviously not fit to lead the business, and while he squandered a lot of money, it was, effectively, invested in his becoming a better, responsible person through life experience, which can arguably be more important than the money lost and pay off manifold in the future

I guess the story does have some value when you look at it in such secular terms.

Of course, the Church would advise us to see its spiritual message.
As such, it loses all value. If we see the father as god, the message is stay close to god or you'll wind up in the pigpen. It's so obvious that these are not our only parameters.

Since my parents raised me to be able to survive in a world where they don't exist, knowing that one day I might have to, I can't relate to teachings that say dependence is good while leaving my father's house is evil.

(June 11, 2016 at 8:48 am)lisah Wrote:

(June 8, 2016 at 4:29 am)Ignorant Wrote: Hello all, I was wondering if some of you would be willing to share what you think about the story of the "Prodigal Son"? All thoughts are welcome. Thanks! 

A man had two sons, and the younger son said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of your estate that should come to me.' So the father divided the property between them.

After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation. When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need. So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine. And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any. 

Coming to his senses he thought, 'How many of my father's hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger. I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers."' So he got up and went back to his father. 

While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him. His son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.' But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast, because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.' Then the celebration began. 

Now the older son had been out in the field and, on his way back, as he neared the house, he heard the sound of music and dancing. He called one of the servants and asked what this might mean. The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.' He became angry, and when he refused to enter the house, his father came out and pleaded with him. 

He said to his father in reply, 'Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders; yet you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends. But when your son returns who swallowed up your property with prostitutes, for him you slaughter the fattened calf.' 

He said to him, 'My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours. But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.'
-Luke 15:11-32

I had a Christian explain that story to me as a story that affirmed his belief that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Satan is the prodigal son in the story.

I don't know how common a belief that is, but it was his belief.

That's Mormonism

Do some Christians think the events in this story actually happened?

I suppose literalists do. If it's written down, and it doesn't say it didn't literally happen, then it happened.

(June 11, 2016 at 7:04 pm)robvalue Wrote: Do some Christians think the events in this story actually happened?

I suppose literalists do. If it's written down, and it doesn't say it didn't literally happen, then it happened.

I'm sure that countless people have experienced such events in their families across time.

(June 11, 2016 at 7:04 pm)robvalue Wrote: Do some Christians think the events in this story actually happened?

I suppose literalists do. If it's written down, and it doesn't say it didn't literally happen, then it happened.

It's definitely one of the more believable stories. Something that could easily happen in real life.

Yeah, I agree. It's not far fetched.

But I was wondering if some Christians take it as a report of specific events, rather than a story with a point to it. By taking it as a literal story, they would end up missing the implications the author was trying to make with allegory.

(June 8, 2016 at 4:48 am)Alex K Wrote: Several thoughts

- The father's reaction is understandable and justified. His one son was obviously not fit to lead the business, and while he squandered a lot of money, it was, effectively, invested in his becoming a better, responsible person through life experience, which can arguably be more important than the money lost and pay off manifold in the future

- What a sucky job where you have to tend to the swine, but don't even get food in return? That's just ridiculous. I'm sure he could have gotten a better one *somewhere*.

- It is really difficult to raise several children with very different characters and keep everything fair and balanced, and envy at bay. Ideally, the brother who stayed home loves his brother so much that he, too, will be in a mood to celebrate once done with the butt-hurt. Also, it's not like he doesn't get a nice piece of the fattened calf once he joins the partey.

I give the story a 7/10. Today it seems a bit trite, but I guess back in the day it was a innovative idea not to kill everyone over the dispute.

I don't think the prodigal so has learned anything about responsibility.
He wasted his inheritance on prostitutes and fun. couldn't even negotiate a job that gave him enough food to live without feeling like he was starving to death, ran back home looking for work but instead got more freebies.

The story does leave out some details like how long the son was working in the swine farm and what happened after the celebration, but I think in general the brother has a good right to be annoyed.
He's not annoyed that the brother is getting the celebration exactly, he's annoyed that the other brother basically spent a gap year in a town full of prostitutes while he had to slave away in the fields.

Frivolous spending + failed negotiations + quiting your first job to run home and grab some more freebies won't equal learning to be responsible.