(June 12, 2016 at 5:04 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 4:41 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: Then there's no strategy at all.

Without the moderates, there would be no Islam. There would only be a cult compound of a small number of nutcases, akin to the Davidians or the Jim Jones following. 

Correct, and I never gave a shit about moderate religious persons. If you feel like fighting, by all means, saddle up Rosinante. I've got bigger fish to fry. Such as following my interests. As I keep saying, I'm not atheism. Atheism is just my absence of belief.

If you looked into a mirror with opened eyes, maybe you would see what you suppose to be fighting. The only difference being the opposing field post number.

This is the "fundy atheists are just as bad" argument.

"Fundy atheists" (if there is such a thing) hurt people's feelings. Fundy Muslims kill. I'd say there's a big difference.

(June 12, 2016 at 5:20 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: This is the "fundy atheists are just as bad" argument.

Bingo. You can bet both buttcheeks it is. I hold them in the same contempt as the religious fundies. Everyone trying to shove their views down the throats of others is just the same piece of shit, in my book. The message doesn't matter.

I think the problem with what we call "moderates" is that they are not moderate at all, they just get called "moderate" as a relative term because they stop short of violence. They still (verbally) make it plain that you living a 21st Century life offends them and then cry "Islamophobia" when you clap back. That's still a problem for obvious reasons and I take issue with it. What we refer to as "moderate Muslims", in terms of views and conservativeness, are no more moderate than the hardline Evangelicals and Mormons in The US.

There are real moderate Muslims out there, quite a lot actually, but they just tend to slip under the radar and become an invisible minority because they "don't act very Muslim". These are the ones who dress western, probably drink, and don't obssessively follow every single little rule to the degree of mental illness. I've known plenty of Muslims like that, but they're so like us in the lifestyles that they lead that you actually forget they're Muslim.

(June 12, 2016 at 5:43 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: I think the problem with what we call "moderates" is that they are not moderate at all, they just get called "moderate" as a relative term because they stop short of violence.

And your souce of that would be what exactly? How many muslim moderates have you personally contacted to arrive at that viewpoint?

It's simply ludicrous that people feel like sitting in judgment over people they don't know. Same as with christians or jews. The same people that want their liberties respected, but don't feel like extending the same courtesy to people having a different mindset. Surprised that I feel the same for judgmental atheists as I feel for judgmental theists?

Rule of thumb, as long as they don't interfere with my life or society at larger, I don't interefere with theirs.

I live in a large city where 1/4 of the population are Muslim, so you'd be hard pushed to live here and not be familiar with quite a lot of Muslims. Like I said, you have the psychopathic radicals we see (over-represented) in the news, you have the "moderates" who get called "moderate" because they're not violent but they're still bigoted screaming assholes (again over-represented in the media), and you also get the real moderates who actually are moderate (VERY under-represented in the media).

I don't see why that's "judgmental" to point it out, it's observations. I'm not talking about assuming an individual Muslim is anything before I know them personally, that's just you saying that.

(June 12, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: I don't see why that's "judgmental" to point it out, it's observations. I'm not talking about assuming an individual Muslim is anything before I know them personally, that's just you saying that.

It's judgmental because I've seen all of it. The elderly couple taking their shopping home and sharing their load. The couple where she was wearing a Hijab, but they were joiking and punching each other while laughing at the sub. And the ones where the woman had to walk three steps behind the husband/owner.

There's no broad brush. And, as I keep pointing out, there is no muslim culture. As opposed to certain people, who have been to Indonesia. Bosnia is different from Turkey, as Turkey is different from Iran, as Iran is different from Marocco. Just to name a selsct few of all the different cultures there are. Which even are divided within themselves.

(June 12, 2016 at 6:03 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: I don't see why that's "judgmental" to point it out, it's observations. I'm not talking about assuming an individual Muslim is anything before I know them personally, that's just you saying that.

It's judgmental because I've seen all of it. The elderly couple taking their shopping home and sharing their load. The couple where she was wearing a Hijab, but they were joiking and punching each other while laughing at the sub. And the ones where the woman had to walk three steps behind the husband/owner.

There's no broad brush. And, as I keep pointing out, there is no muslim culture. As opposed to certain people, who have been to Indonesia. Bosnia is different from Turkey, as Turkey is different from Iran, as Iran is different from Marocco. Just to name a selsct few of all the different cultures there are. Which even are divided within themselves.

Ok and where exactly are we disagreeing here? In your first paragraph you basically said what I said, re-worded, about there being real moderates as well as radicals and conservatives. That's exactly what I said before.

All I'm saying is that a lot of the time Muslims who are not moderate get described as "moderate" because they're seen as relatively more moderate than the radicals. That's not me saying "no Muslims are moderate", that's me saying that Muslims who are not moderate get described as "moderate". You're just putting words in my mouth, I'm not even convinced you're not trolling at this point.

(June 12, 2016 at 6:11 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: Ok and where exactly are we disagreeing here?

I only have to go as far as you statement of moderates only refraining from violence. If that's not applying the broad brush, what is?

(June 12, 2016 at 5:42 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 5:20 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: This is the "fundy atheists are just as bad" argument.

Bingo. You can bet both buttcheeks it is. I hold them in the same contempt as the religious fundies. Everyone trying to shove their views down the throats of others is just the same piece of shit, in my book. The message doesn't matter.

Forgive me for not standing by while an ideology of hate drives one massacre after another. I'll continue hurting people's feelings as long as my target ideologies are violent. 

Silence is enabling.

I'm painting people with a "broad brush" just because I don't think nonviolence is enough for people to call someone "moderate"... by that logic the Westboro Baptist Church are "moderate Christians" then...



Ok. I'm done here, good day.