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RE: Free will
June 15, 2016 at 7:57 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 6:27 pm)Shadow_Man Wrote: The evidence overwhelmingly says we make choices freely.
You keep saying that. There is no evidence at all that shows we have free will. Your assertion and belief is not proof of free will.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
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Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: Free will
June 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-or even that we make choices freely, which is not synonymous with a free will anyway. We don't, ultimately, know how we make choices at all...but among what we do know of it...you aren't going to find much you'd be able to describe as free any more strenously than as a comforting platitude.
It seems that some of my choices are free of the phases of the moon and position of the stars under which I was born....hurray, "free will"!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
June 15, 2016 at 8:02 pm
How would one "make choices freely" without free will?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Free will
June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm
By having a choice making apparatus and not a "will".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 12:38 am
@ Shadow Man
Philiosophical determinism already has a definition. Philosophical indeterminism is merely the absence of philosophical determinism. They are two mutually exclusive alternatives. Determinism/indeterminism is a true dichotomy.
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am
(June 15, 2016 at 8:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: By having a choice making apparatus and not a "will".
Free will is the ability to choose, correct?
I am finding myself at a loss at understanding the majority atheistic view in relation to free will.
Even if there was, in reality, a being that could predetermine everyone's life down to mere seconds.....there's no way.
There are entirely too many variables in place and even mathematics cannot solve this one.
Free will has always been and always will be in an individual's control due to the decisions that individual makes every second of his conscious life.
To state that one does not have free will because an imaginary being prevents it is ludicrous.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 12:53 am
(June 2, 2016 at 7:50 pm)Shadow_Man Wrote: So -
What is determinism?
Here is a possible definition -
When a set of influences impact upon a sentient entity, that entity must necessarily react in one and only one way. It cannot do otherwise.
I accept your definition of determinism.
Quote:What is indeterminism?
It is "not-determinism,"
Correct.
Quote:When a set of influences impact upon a sentient entity, that entity is free to react in any way it chooses, within its own ability to enact those choices. It can readily do otherwise.
Correct but it's only "free to" in the sense that all those other possible outcomes are available of course. The availability of other possible outcomes is available to a set of dice too. And note that for the choices made to not be random means the sentient entity is determining the outcome, which isn't indeterminism.
If determinism is true a sentient entity cannot determine otherwise because there is no otherwise in determinism.
If indeterminism is true a sentient entity cannot determine otherwise because there is no determining in indeterminism.
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 10:54 am
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 11:06 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 16, 2016 at 12:44 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Free will is the ability to choose, correct? Not as far as I'm aware, no. The two are commonly equivocated upon, though, for such obvious reasons as it being plainly simple to show that choices exist and are made..whereas this free will business is a bit of a rabbit hole.
Quote:I am finding myself at a loss at understanding the majority atheistic view in relation to free will.
I'm not sure that there is one.
Quote:Even if there was, in reality, a being that could predetermine everyone's life down to mere seconds.....there's no way.
There are entirely too many variables in place and even mathematics cannot solve this one.
*Magic. The proposition inferred here simply states that such a being does exist and can do that. Perhaps meaningless on it's own, but try to square it away with other propositions which a person might try to include as equally and simultaneously true and you've got something to talk about. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter whether or not anything or anyone can solve that, whether or not any being exists which can claim the ability....only that it be possible to do so. If the future can be known, in truth, regardless of whether or not anyone knows it or how...we're woefully wrong about ourselves, the nature of our decisions, the relationship to cause or effect, and our ability to steer either. In short...we're wrong about everything associated with free will.
Quote:Free will has always been and always will be in an individual's control due to the decisions that individual makes every second of his conscious life.
To state that one does not have free will because an imaginary being prevents it is ludicrous.
It has not always been that, it isn't now...and I've certainly said no such thing, so..... ? At it's heart, free will has been the notion that the human mind/consciousness/soul..wtf ever...is a sort of mini prime mover. It sets motion, it doesn't -get set- in motion.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 12:10 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 1:02 pm by Thomas Kelly252525.)
If it's thought there is no freewill, then a person may think they are only a slave and there is a master.
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RE: Free will
June 16, 2016 at 12:12 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2016 at 12:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
They might think that, but it would be a massive non-sequitur. People believe silly things, wouldn't you agree?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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