(June 19, 2016 at 11:42 am)madog Wrote: You should take a little time and listen to ex Muslims and the problems they get in their own community and the death threats and lack of support from Liberals .....

I'm perfectly aware of that, thank you very much. But it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't take a specific religion to go there. Russia would be a perfect example, as well as Poland under it's newest abomination of a government.

(June 19, 2016 at 11:11 am)abaris Wrote: And ....?

Btw, you might want to look at this chart. American muslims are more likely to be in favor of gay marriage than evangelical christians.



http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-ame...kely-to-su

But also consider that gay marriage doesn't exist in any country that has a majority Muslim population. And that this list shows that overall even Muslims who live in America oppose gay marriage more than Jews or Christians.

There's 21 countries, a lot of them with Christian majority populations that all have access to gay marriage.

(June 19, 2016 at 11:59 am)paulpablo Wrote: But also consider that gay marriage doesn't exist in any country that has a majority Muslim population. And that this list shows that overall even Muslims who live in America oppose gay marriage more than Jews or Christians.

And what does that tell you? Apart from all christians being wrong in the first place, since they split christian denominations and many brands aren't in favor.

Also what does it tell you about majority muslim countries, other than their government being opposed. In short, nothing, since they haven't been polled.

(June 19, 2016 at 11:58 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 11:42 am)madog Wrote: You should take a little time and listen to ex Muslims and the problems they get in their own community and the death threats and lack of support from Liberals .....

I'm perfectly aware of that, thank you very much. But it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't take a specific religion to go there. Russia would be a perfect example, as well as Poland under it's newest abomination of a government.

You keep bringing in examples as if one bad excuses another? 

I think any one infringing on another persons accepted rights in their (adopted) home nation should be challenged ....

If the infringement is because of Christianity, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, whatever religious doctrine then that religious doctrine should be challenged. 

Those that do accept parts of their religion are unacceptable (or have been interpreted incorrectly by some) will have no problem when these shortfalls are pointed out .... 

They should find no insult when shortfalls with hard line doctrine are pointed out as those are not their beliefs ...... It is only those that agree with infringements on others freedom that will take offence ....

The problem is the pseudo Liberals are protecting those religious elements that want to maintain their religious hard line doctrines at the cost of moderate Muslims.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:02 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 11:59 am)paulpablo Wrote: But also consider that gay marriage doesn't exist in any country that has a majority Muslim population. And that this list shows that overall even Muslims who live in America oppose gay marriage more than Jews or Christians.

And what does that tell you? Apart from all christians being wrong in the first place, since they split christian denominations and many brands aren't in favor.

Also what does it tell you about majority muslim countries, other than their government being opposed. In short, nothing, since they haven't been polled.

There are surveys from these countries from the general populations.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-...sexuality/

Europe isn't looking too bad which is mainly christian or secular, latin America not too bad again.

It's horrendous for all of the middle east countries except for the one non Muslim country in that group which is Israel.

The asia and pacific group are ok until you get to the three Muslim majority countries, Pakistan, India and Malaysia which again all look horrendous. 

And to be fair all the African countries are predictably against gay marriage and all Christian but there aren't and Muslim African countries on this chart and I predict it would be the same as the Christian outlook if not worse.

Quote:Publics in Africa and in predominantly Muslim countries remain among the least accepting of homosexuality. In sub-Saharan Africa, at least nine-in-ten in Nigeria (98%), Senegal (96%), Ghana (96%), Uganda (96%) and Kenya (90%) believe homosexuality should not be accepted by society.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:23 pm)madog Wrote: If the infringement is because of Christianity, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, whatever religious doctrine then that religious doctrine should be challenged. 

Because there's at least an equal number of people not subscribing to it. I don't blame any religious person for something others take from the same scripture. That's the difference between applying the broad brush and looking at humans. Would do some of you some good if you did the same.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: And to be fair all the African countries are predictably against gay marriage and all Christian but there aren't and Muslim African countries on this chart and I predict it would be the same as the Christian outlook if not worse.

Again, what does that tell you, other than society and socialisation playing a role? Religion obviously isn't that important when added to the mix, as the American example of muslims fairing better than JWs, Evangelicals or Mormons should show you. And being at least on equal footing with most other christian denominations.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:30 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 12:23 pm)madog Wrote: If the infringement is because of Christianity, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, whatever religious doctrine then that religious doctrine should be challenged. 

Because there's at least an equal number of people not subscribing to it. I don't blame any religious person for something others take from the same scripture. That's the difference between applying the broad brush and looking at humans. Would do some of you some good if you did the same.

And you think we would have got here without challenging religion? 

You seem to be under the illusion that its about challenging the man/women in the street .... Its about changing those that indoctrinate such as Priests, Ministers, Rabbi's, Mullahs/imams, Popes, etc, etc ...

(June 19, 2016 at 12:48 pm)madog Wrote: You seem to be under the illusion that its about challenging the man/women in the street .... Its about changing those that indoctrinate such as Priests, Ministers, Rabbi's, Mullahs/imams, Popes, etc, etc ...

Which I don't have any influence over. None of us has, even if we wanted to be missionaries. Which, as I repeatedly said, I don't want to be. The only thing I can do is getting along with most people and telling the ones I don't get along with, why.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:30 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 12:23 pm)madog Wrote: If the infringement is because of Christianity, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, whatever religious doctrine then that religious doctrine should be challenged. 

Because there's at least an equal number of people not subscribing to it. I don't blame any religious person for something others take from the same scripture. That's the difference between applying the broad brush and looking at humans. Would do some of you some good if you did the same.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: And to be fair all the African countries are predictably against gay marriage and all Christian but there aren't and Muslim African countries on this chart and I predict it would be the same as the Christian outlook if not worse.

Again, what does that tell you, other than society and socialisation playing a role? Religion obviously isn't that important when added to the mix, as the American example of muslims fairing better than JWs, Evangelicals or Mormons should show you. And being at least on equal footing with most other christian denominations.

Ok.  Society plays a role.  I didn't say otherwise.  But if you're going to point out a few denominations and say look at these in comparison to Muslims I think it's important to note that gay marriage isn't even legally possible in places where the majority of people are Muslim and all the places where it's legal are mainly Christian.

And if you want to look opinion polls they're also showing Muslims have a worse opinion of homosexuals as a general trend worldwide.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:53 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 12:48 pm)madog Wrote: You seem to be under the illusion that its about challenging the man/women in the street .... Its about changing those that indoctrinate such as Priests, Ministers, Rabbi's, Mullahs/imams, Popes, etc, etc ...

Which I don't have any influence over. None of us has, even if we wanted to be missionaries. Which, as I repeatedly said, I don't want to be. The only thing I can do is getting along with most people and telling the ones I don't get along with, why.

And to the many Muslim apostates, LBGT, women forced into marriage, list goes on (yes I know other religions have faults but they are already fair game) your message is Fuck off I don't want to upset a theocracy?