The hadiths are nothing but political anecdotes.  Surely, allah can do better than that?

(June 20, 2016 at 3:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The hadiths are nothing but political anecdotes.  Surely, allah can do better than that?

Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

(June 21, 2016 at 2:25 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 20, 2016 at 3:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The hadiths are nothing but political anecdotes.  Surely, allah can do better than that?

Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

So are you saying a computer could never be programmed to write something better than the Quran in the (original) Arabic? Are you saying it is impossible for humans to arrange words in a language created by humans in a particular order? Are you sure the rules of Arabic aren't bent and twisted to fit the Quran and make it seem like a masterpiece?

There is a website called Library of Babel which contains everything in the Latin Alphabet that ever has been written and that ever be written. Most of the library is random strings of characters, but that's the nature of something so crude, but within the website you can find linguistic masterpieces because the Library of Babel contains every single combination of Latin alphabetical characters.

If somebody makes a similar website to Library of Babel for Arabic, the computer would be able to randomly generate text of the Quran simply by the nature of the software.  Every single possible combination of Arabic characters will be saved in the database. Then the Quran won't seem so linguistically miraculous.

As an example, on this page in a book contained with the Library of Babel, we see the phrase "to be or not to be" on its own. You can find the entire works of Shakespeare in the Library of Babel. Anything you can ever conceive is generated by the software. The same can be done for the Arabic language.

Also, The True Furqan, is a response to the claim that the Quran is linguistically miraculous. The Quran Furqan mirrors the Arabic of the Quran but people dismiss it as either U.S. or Israeli inspired or as Christian propaganda. Nobody knows its original author but it was translated into English by the Palestinian Arab Anis Shorrosh (born in Nazareth and somebody who has debated Ahmed Deedat).

(June 21, 2016 at 2:25 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 20, 2016 at 3:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The hadiths are nothing but political anecdotes.  Surely, allah can do better than that?

Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

A well written book is proof of God's existence? Why?

(June 21, 2016 at 2:25 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 20, 2016 at 3:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The hadiths are nothing but political anecdotes.  Surely, allah can do better than that?

Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

By your token we must accept everything Shakespeare wrote as absolutely historically accurate in every detail, given how beautiful and poetic his use of English was.

The quality of language says nothing about the accuracy of a work's message, it only attests to how well a person can frame their thoughts.

(June 21, 2016 at 1:31 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 21, 2016 at 2:25 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

By your token we must accept everything Shakespeare wrote as absolutely historically accurate in every detail, given how beautiful and poetic his use of English was.

The quality of language says nothing about the accuracy of a work's message, it only attests to how well a person can frame their thoughts.

You might not like it, I certainly don't, but the Saudi funded Fascists, have already attempted to address that contention. Clearly, my response is far more troublesome for the Da'is than simply stating "Shakespeare". The argument is Shakespeare can be replicated so the Quran is better because it can't (even though I showed it can).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38b0gRL5rzI

Long story short "I really like this book, ergo allah."

Well, point me to the nearest mosque, I'm convinced.

(June 21, 2016 at 6:15 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:

(June 21, 2016 at 2:25 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Even from pure linguistic perspectives, the Quran is a masterpiece; you're not hearing this because I'm a biased Muslim; you would know it if you could speak Arabic indeed.

In terms of linguistic structure, the book is simple yet strong, poetic but accurate, ah well, Heathens of Mecca (who were masters of Arabic) couldn't breach into it; you'll hear this argument a lot as a proof for Islam, it's one of my favorites anyhow.

The Hadiths are dry, very dry in comparison.

So are you saying a computer could never be programmed to write something better than the Quran in the (original) Arabic? Are you saying it is impossible for humans to arrange words in a language created by humans in a particular order? Are you sure the rules of Arabic aren't bent and twisted to fit the Quran and make it seem like a masterpiece?

There is a website called Library of Babel which contains everything in the Latin Alphabet that ever has been written and that ever be written. Most of the library is random strings of characters, but that's the nature of something so crude, but within the website you can find linguistic masterpieces because the Library of Babel contains every single combination of Latin alphabetical characters.

If somebody makes a similar website to Library of Babel for Arabic, the computer would be able to randomly generate text of the Quran simply by the nature of the software.  Every single possible combination of Arabic characters will be saved in the database. Then the Quran won't seem so linguistically miraculous.

As an example, on this page in a book contained with the Library of Babel, we see the phrase "to be or not to be" on its own. You can find the entire works of Shakespeare in the Library of Babel. Anything you can ever conceive is generated by the software. The same can be done for the Arabic language.

Also, The True Furqan, is a response to the claim that the Quran is linguistically miraculous. The Quran Furqan mirrors the Arabic of the Quran but people dismiss it as either U.S. or Israeli inspired or as Christian propaganda. Nobody knows its original author but it was translated into English by the Palestinian Arab Anis Shorrosh (born in Nazareth and somebody who has debated Ahmed Deedat).

As a matter in fact a programmer might have a different opinion:

http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/general/174441/

The site is not doing what you think it does. Truly, first observations are the speed, as a programmer who work codes on almost daily basis, this is something that is ultra fishy.

Secondly, it doesn't "contain" things, we'll have a storage problem -a severe one, actually- if we were to store all these strings. All this text you see is created on the fly.

Technically, I can describe this as "the book is not physically there unless you begin to search for it; the book is not there unless you provide an a value for the parameter :  from there, the algorithm would take your input, and produce to you some random text, manipulated enough over the pages. " ; to me, to logic, that is a mere trick, actually it's very simple to implement. Changing bases is very basic in Computer Science.

Frankly, that is so different, from a masterpiece that is simple to read, and at the same time : logical; it's not "generated through my input"; rather it is summed up in 600 pages, sitting there since 1400 years. 

As for the "True Furqan", I wouldn't call it propaganda, but an attempt of "trolling" ?
Ah, Anis Shorrosh is not the best example on wise criticism; he's a troll. The book itself is copycatting Quranic verses in a childish way that ends up to be hilarious and actually brings a very bad name to the author and the translator. It just shows the sad desperate state that some theists reach; exploding with tantrums.

chimp3

It's not just "well written", it was special to a degree that made ancient Arabs call Mohammed a wizard over it. 
Its beauty is combined with a logic that is non existent in other literature.

Constable Dorfl

Logic and meaning is what makes it so special.
For the two to exist in the same book, has a strange effect.

Though, it's all about the logical meaning after all. 
Shakespeare's work might be beautiful, but it doesn't provide enough logic to back the text up.

(June 22, 2016 at 4:42 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 21, 2016 at 6:15 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: So are you saying a computer could never be programmed to write something better than the Quran in the (original) Arabic? Are you saying it is impossible for humans to arrange words in a language created by humans in a particular order? Are you sure the rules of Arabic aren't bent and twisted to fit the Quran and make it seem like a masterpiece?

There is a website called Library of Babel which contains everything in the Latin Alphabet that ever has been written and that ever be written. Most of the library is random strings of characters, but that's the nature of something so crude, but within the website you can find linguistic masterpieces because the Library of Babel contains every single combination of Latin alphabetical characters.

If somebody makes a similar website to Library of Babel for Arabic, the computer would be able to randomly generate text of the Quran simply by the nature of the software.  Every single possible combination of Arabic characters will be saved in the database. Then the Quran won't seem so linguistically miraculous.

As an example, on this page in a book contained with the Library of Babel, we see the phrase "to be or not to be" on its own. You can find the entire works of Shakespeare in the Library of Babel. Anything you can ever conceive is generated by the software. The same can be done for the Arabic language.

Also, The True Furqan, is a response to the claim that the Quran is linguistically miraculous. The Quran Furqan mirrors the Arabic of the Quran but people dismiss it as either U.S. or Israeli inspired or as Christian propaganda. Nobody knows its original author but it was translated into English by the Palestinian Arab Anis Shorrosh (born in Nazareth and somebody who has debated Ahmed Deedat).

As a matter in fact a programmer might have a different opinion:

http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/general/174441/

The site is not doing what you think it does. Truly, first observations are the speed, as a programmer who work codes on almost daily basis, this is something that is ultra fishy.

Secondly, it doesn't "contain" things, we'll have a storage problem -a severe one, actually- if we were to store all these strings. All this text you see is created on the fly.

Technically, I can describe this as "the book is not physically there unless you begin to search for it; the book is not there unless you provide an a value for the parameter :  from there, the algorithm would take your input, and produce to you some random text, manipulated enough over the pages. " ; to me, to logic, that is a mere trick, actually it's very simple to implement. Changing bases is very basic in Computer Science.

Frankly, that is so different, from a masterpiece that is simple to read, and at the same time : logical; it's not "generated through my input"; rather it is summed up in 600 pages, sitting there since 1400 years. 

As for the "True Furqan", I wouldn't call it propaganda, but an attempt of "trolling" ?
Ah, Anis Shorrosh is not the best example on wise criticism; he's a troll. The book itself is copycatting Quranic verses in a childish way that ends up to be hilarious and actually brings a very bad name to the author and the translator. It just shows the sad desperate state that some theists reach; exploding with tantrums.

chimp3

It's not just "well written", it was special to a degree that made ancient Arabs call Mohammed a wizard over it. 
Its beauty is combined with a logic that is non existent in other literature.

Constable Dorfl

Logic and meaning is what makes it so special.
For the two to exist in the same book, has a strange effect.

Though, it's all about the logical meaning after all. 
Shakespeare's work might be beautiful, but it doesn't provide enough logic to back the text up.

AtlaS33 : "It's not just "well written", it was special to a degree that made ancient Arabs call Mohammed a wizard over it. 
Its beauty is combined with a logic that is non existent in other literature."

So humans could understand and appreciate the unique logic but were incapable of generating it themselves ?