I'm interested to see how theists would write their criteria so as not to identify their own texts as frequently fictional.

We've had one attempt so far, and it made no sense to me and didn't have any general principles that could be applied to a random story.

Discerning fact from fiction can be extremely difficult (particularly as regards children), so much so that I'm not sure I know where to begin.

By way of example, consider some of Mark Twain's travelogues. His description of the grounds of Versailles in 'The Innocents Abroad' reads almost like a Tolkien description of some Elf kingdom or other, yet it is perfectly, exactly true. By contrast, he relates a whopper about finding a ancient newspaper in the Colosseum, containing a review of recent gladiatorial contests, as well a playbill containing a preview of upcoming events. He tells the story is such a straightforward manner, however, that I'm sure many children (and not a few adults) would think it was not a fictional account.

That being said, kids aren't stupid. They're almost sure to know that a story about a flying, talking hippo is a fable, as would be one where the furniture gets up and goes dancing round the room. But a 'general principles' list is going to be pretty hard to come up with, as fiction exists on a spectrum.

Boru

Fair enough.

This is meant to be a first pass, a smell test. A way to look for obvious fiction. It's not meant to validate the accounts any further than that. We're just comparing believable to non-believable.

I'll add this to the OP, maybe I wasn't clear enough on this point.

I've significantly edited the OP since I first posted it, as it seems I've missed the mark quite considerably compared to what I was aiming for.

Apologies to all, and thanks for the feedback.

(July 16, 2016 at 4:10 am)robvalue Wrote: Fair enough.

This is meant to be a first pass, a smell test. A way to look for obvious fiction. It's not meant to validate the accounts any further than that. We're just comparing believable to non-believable.

I'll add this to the OP, maybe I wasn't clear enough on this point.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. What you're looking for is a proper education, not a magical solution. So they're either educated enough to think critically, or not. But you're not going to educate them instantly, by following some sort of principles. That's just not how a thinking mind works, or learns for that matter. It's more of a natural process.

I can sense that I'm missing the mark somewhat here as well, as concerns what you're actually asking for, but given how I understand it now, that's what I have to say at the moment. I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you said and so responding to something else than what you really had in mind.

I've updated the OP again to remove the theist clause. I'd just like some thoughtful replies from theists, mainly.

EP: this is about analysing our own thought processes. Going back to first principles. What tools do we have to highlight obvious fiction? Of course we can do it, I'm asking how we do it. How would we aid this development in a child? Of course it would be part of a rounded education.

I'm especially interested in theists because I don't believe they would follow their own rules, unless they significantly bent them.

This special class isn't meant to be a magical solution to anything. It's a general overview to get the child thinking.

I apologize again EP, I can see now you're trying to be genuinely helpful. I misread your tone quite considerably.

(July 16, 2016 at 4:18 am)robvalue Wrote: EP: this is about analysing our own thought processes. Going back to first principles. What tools do we have to highlight obvious fiction? Of course we can do it, I'm asking how we do it. How would we aid this development in a child? Of course it would be part of a rounded education.

I'm especially interested in theists because I don't believe they would follow their own rules, unless they significantly bent them.

This special class isn't meant to be a magical solution to anything. It's a general overview to get the child thinking.

Ok, I understand that.

Just re-read the OP and I see better what you're driving at. Well done.

I think that any group of reasonably bright, non-indoctrinated kids would find the story of Jesus to be fiction (and more than a little scary). Taking that as a model, I might want the kids to think about the following.

1. Do the characters in the stories do things that, as far as you know, people can't do?

2. Does nature behave in the story differently from how you've seen nature behave in your own life?

3. Is there anything about the story that seems impossible to you?

If you answered 'yes' to any of these questions, then the story is probably fiction.

Boru