(July 17, 2016 at 9:20 am)Cato Wrote:

(July 17, 2016 at 9:09 am)paulpablo Wrote: This incorrectly assumes that white people all receive the privileges mentioned in this thread and therefore consider those privileges to be normal.  

For example not being in a minority, not being racially abused, not being killed/beaten by police, having an economic advantage, living in a white majority country, not being racially stereotyped.

Your reply validates the point I was making.

How?

(July 17, 2016 at 9:22 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(July 17, 2016 at 9:13 am)Mermaid Wrote: It is sad and frustrating that people can't even agree that there's the possibility this is a problem, and instead get defensive and argumentative about the experiences of other people. (experiences that you cannot know about because you have not lived life as them).

There's a difference between being defensive and pointing out that something is factually wrong.

If someone tells me that I'm never in the minority because I'm white and I'm reading this while I'm at my local gym where two people including me are white and the rest are 15 pakistani men and 2 pakistani women, I'm not being defensive by saying that this privilege doesn't apply to me in all situations I'm just pointing out facts.

I'm just pointing out facts when I say that white people aren't the most advantaged when it comes to police shootings, Asians are.

I take on board that white people have a large statistical advantage in court rooms because I think it's been factually proven.

But instead of taking on board the facts that I point out people are more likely to say "Hey, no need to get defensive."

No black person or person of any other race can know my personal experiences enough to know that I'm more or less privileged than they are.

If you're going to say white people can't know what it's like to be black then it works both ways in the sense that black people don't know what it's like to be white. 

 Which is pretty much nonsense anyway because people of all races live individual lives, I don't know what it's like to be as rich as 50 cent or as poor as an Ethiopian starving child or as rich as a Chinese billionaire or as poor as a Russian peasant.

Do you agree that there are people of certain races who are treated differently and/or more unfairly than others?

THAT is the crux of the problem. The points you make here are at best puzzling.

(July 17, 2016 at 9:22 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(July 17, 2016 at 9:20 am)Cato Wrote: Your reply validates the point I was making.

How?

He's making assumptions about white people, that's how.

(July 17, 2016 at 9:27 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(July 17, 2016 at 9:22 am)paulpablo Wrote: There's a difference between being defensive and pointing out that something is factually wrong.

If someone tells me that I'm never in the minority because I'm white and I'm reading this while I'm at my local gym where two people including me are white and the rest are 15 pakistani men and 2 pakistani women, I'm not being defensive by saying that this privilege doesn't apply to me in all situations I'm just pointing out facts.

I'm just pointing out facts when I say that white people aren't the most advantaged when it comes to police shootings, Asians are.

I take on board that white people have a large statistical advantage in court rooms because I think it's been factually proven.

But instead of taking on board the facts that I point out people are more likely to say "Hey, no need to get defensive."

No black person or person of any other race can know my personal experiences enough to know that I'm more or less privileged than they are.

If you're going to say white people can't know what it's like to be black then it works both ways in the sense that black people don't know what it's like to be white. 

 Which is pretty much nonsense anyway because people of all races live individual lives, I don't know what it's like to be as rich as 50 cent or as poor as an Ethiopian starving child or as rich as a Chinese billionaire or as poor as a Russian peasant.

Do you agree that there are people of certain races who are treated differently and/or more unfairly than others?

THAT is the crux of the problem. The points you make here are at best puzzling.

I've never said that isn't a problem or that it doesn't happen.

Can you point out one thing I said that puzzled you so far?

(July 17, 2016 at 9:27 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(July 17, 2016 at 9:22 am)paulpablo Wrote: There's a difference between being defensive and pointing out that something is factually wrong.

If someone tells me that I'm never in the minority because I'm white and I'm reading this while I'm at my local gym where two people including me are white and the rest are 15 pakistani men and 2 pakistani women, I'm not being defensive by saying that this privilege doesn't apply to me in all situations I'm just pointing out facts.

I'm just pointing out facts when I say that white people aren't the most advantaged when it comes to police shootings, Asians are.

I take on board that white people have a large statistical advantage in court rooms because I think it's been factually proven.

But instead of taking on board the facts that I point out people are more likely to say "Hey, no need to get defensive."

No black person or person of any other race can know my personal experiences enough to know that I'm more or less privileged than they are.

If you're going to say white people can't know what it's like to be black then it works both ways in the sense that black people don't know what it's like to be white. 

 Which is pretty much nonsense anyway because people of all races live individual lives, I don't know what it's like to be as rich as 50 cent or as poor as an Ethiopian starving child or as rich as a Chinese billionaire or as poor as a Russian peasant.

Do you agree that there are people of certain races who are treated differently and/or more unfairly than others?

THAT is the crux of the problem. The points you make here are at best puzzling.

What I'm saying is that there's a term called white privilege while not all white people have these privileges that white privilege is supposed to entail so I'm questioning to what extent it actually exists.

I'm also stating that I don't think it's a valid way to make a phrase to use a racial adjective then add the word privilege to the end of it to imply that the people of this race are inherently advantaged wherever they go, whatever they do.  The reason being people live individual lives and have inindividual experiences and some of these people no matter what race they are will be excluded from these so called white privileges.

(July 17, 2016 at 8:33 am)robvalue Wrote: Yes, it's real. I've seen it first hand.

White gets to move first. Every single game.

Yep. Except in Checkers but Checkers represents a small minority of cases.

Quote:What I'm saying is that there's a term called white privilege while not all white people have these privileges that white privilege is supposed to entail so I'm questioning to what extent it actually exists.

I'm also stating that I don't think it's a valid way to make a phrase to use a racial adjective then add the word privilege to the end of it to imply that the people of this race are inherently advantaged wherever they go, whatever they do.  The reason being people live individual lives and have inindividual experiences and some of these people no matter what race they are will be excluded from these so called white privileges.

Jeus christ Pablo, lol.  Yes, by default, a white person in the US has white privilege.  You're commenting about some white people not doing well (somewhere....say..Sudan, idk?)....and that's not at all relevant to the discussion. Even the whites who aren't doing well...have white privilege. These are those privileges assigned to you merely because of the color of your skin. Mostly, we don't actually think about it, no ones going around handing out or revoking cards. We're not intentional including or excluding anyone at a race privilege board.

That would be overt racism. White privilege is the subtler effect.

(July 17, 2016 at 12:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:What I'm saying is that there's a term called white privilege while not all white people have these privileges that white privilege is supposed to entail so I'm questioning to what extent it actually exists.

I'm also stating that I don't think it's a valid way to make a phrase to use a racial adjective then add the word privilege to the end of it to imply that the people of this race are inherently advantaged wherever they go, whatever they do.  The reason being people live individual lives and have inindividual experiences and some of these people no matter what race they are will be excluded from these so called white privileges.

Jeus christ Pablo, lol.  Yes, by default, a white person in the US has white privilege.  You're commenting about some white people not doing well....and that's not at all relevant to the discussion.  Even the whites who aren't doing well...have white privilege.

Labeling a whole race of people being privileged by default because of a statistical likelyhood of advantage is a bit of sweeping statement though.

When you consider the variables within that population relating to advantages of wealth, relationships with the police and so on.

So just to clarify, a white person beaten to death by police has white privilege? If so then what was the privilege?

Here's a theory of mine, privileged white Americans alleviate their own feelings of guilt relating to being privileged, agree that white privilege exists. 

 Working class white people (who often live elsewhere in the world) who often have bad relationships with the police, a lack of wealth, live in areas where they're the racial minority will be shouted down as being "defensive" or "racist." and will be mocked and ostracized if they dare to question the extent which this privilege exists in the way it's portrayed.

I'm not labeling us that, we quantitatively -are-.  Yes, a white person beaten to death has white privilege.  They lived their whole life with it, despite how their life ended.  Some might even say..in this context, they squandered it.  Those many and varied privileges have already been described to you in this thread and there's no point in repeating them if you'll simply insist that someone, somewhere, doesn't have them.  None of us has everything all the time...you know.  

Your theory has a flaw...in that it's a theory to explain away a demonstrable fact.  Now personally, I flaunt my privilege at every opportunity.  Why wouldn't I?  I'm a working class guy with poor relationships with the police...and I can -still- expect better treatment than a black man who's had good relationships with the police..I'd be a moron not to take advantage.  Whenever the situation calls for it, I white the fuck up. That's white privilege. It doesn't actually make me feel guilty, because it;s not something I instill or maintain. I would feel guilty, if I spent too much time trying to deny that it existed...not because I have white guilt (I don't...I was raised to be a modern day night rider, lol, for better or for worse that part oif my upbringing has made me laughably immune to white guilt).....but because that shit is monstrously indifferent.

(July 17, 2016 at 1:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not labeling us that, we quantitatively -are-.  Yes, a white person beaten to death has white privilege.  They lived their whole life with it, despite how their life ended.  Some might even say..in this context, they squandered it.  Those many and varied privileges have already been described to you in this thread and there's no point in repeating them if you'll simply insist that someone, somewhere, doesn't have them.  None of us has everything all the time...you know.  

Your theory has a flaw...in that it's a theory to explain away a demonstrable fact.  Now personally, I flaunt my privilege at every opportunity.  Why wouldn't I?  I'm a working class guy with poor relationships with the police...and I can -still- expect better treatment than a black man who's had good relationships with the police.  That's white privilege.  It doesn;t actually make me feel guilty, because it;s not something I instill or maintain.  I would feel guilty, if I spent too much time trying to deny that it existed...but not because I'm white.....because that shit is monstrously indifferent.

 How is your bad relationship with the police demonstrably better than a good relationship with the police a black person might have.  Let's say it's a black police officer.

If we're defining one as good and the other as bad then surely good is better than bad by definition?