Why thank you reverend. I do try my best.

And summerqueen, if that was by the off chance directed at me, then i was not serious

I cant see how anyone could possibly question Jesus’s existence, the bibles, the millions of books that were written, the records that were kept still remain to this day, just not the their original format.

You could question the miracles, that’s fair enough, or question the crucifixion and the resurrection yes, but his existence, there shouldn’t be any doubt.

1billion people wouldn’t be following a fictional character and a fictional character would not be one of the, if not THE most influential person ever to grace this earth.

It’s a well known fact that when the romans adopted Christianity in order to make it their own, they re-wrote the bible, added a lot of fantasy and metaphorical ideas which later people started taking as literal meanings ie son of god, died for our sins, the trinity etc.

They collected and burned the original aromaic bibles, and possession was punishable by death. Segments of some of these earlier bibles have been recovered but they are never properly translated or published since it clashes greatly with modern Christianity.

Athiests are fixed on asking for ‘Evidence’ in order to prove gods/jesus existence, yet nearly everything you believe yourself doesn’t have any evidence to support it, it all depende on how you perceive evidence.

To you guys, an apes skull from 1million years ago is evidence of ape-human evolution, which if looked at logically, is a much further stretch for the evidence then that of the bible and jesus.

I am a muslim, so I don’t believe in the resurrection, so I wouldn’t take any of those claims seriously, nor do I believe he died for our sins, he was sent as a mercy and a message to mankind, as with every other prophet ie moses, Abraham, but he didn’t de for our sins.

It would be almost impossible to prove Jesus, or moses existence physically as you request, since your going back pretty far in history for any organic material to be preserved, most buildings from those days dnt stand today, everythings been blown up and rebuilt hundreds of times over since then.

There are very early Christian books which exist in Palestinian libraries that date back 2000yrs, not long after jesus died. But these books are generally not publicized by the church since they exclude all the roman ideology from the bible. There is a BBC documentary on youtube about the contents of these books. No resurrection, no trinity, no holy ghosts and spirits, no son of god either….

You atheists are so adamant on proofs, yet you fail to observe any proofs for your own beliefs.

Ie according to professor hawkings, IF the expansion rate of the universe after the big bang (or beginning of time) had varied by 0.00000000000000000001% then stars could not form. Too slow and the universe would cave in on itself too fast and matter would have scattered everywhere, don’t forget gravity is a VERY week force.

Mathematically and scientifically this is not an act of a random explosion, it IS a controlled explosion, but controlled by who?

You believe intelligence and life somehow manifested itself into innate matter, the earyth was made of rocks, water, and metals, how could these molecules have interacted that caused them to intelligently think for themselves and form more complex molecules which can perform specific tasks.

This intelligence has reached as far what we are today, extremely complex organisms made of millions of different types of micro organisms, each and every one dependant on the other.

Can any atheists in here prove to me or show me evidence of how dead matter could suddenly start forming ‘living’ beings and possess intelligence?

Look around you and observe what you see, shit on the ground which has grown into trees and plants, then that matter transforms itself into animals, and that animals matter can transfer state into another animal and so on and so forth.

Then when that matter dies, it is reborn as new life. And it isn’t a small amount of matter, its ALL over earth, matter which thinks for itself…

It seems that this life and intelligence is so adamant on foring newer and more complex life forms, then why has this intelligence in the matter not manifested itself on other planets?

You say because there is no liquid water or amino acids, but explain to me the significance of these elements in creating intelligence?> what is the source of intelligence?

The fantasy scenarios you guys believe in is far more fictional and absurd than ANY religion.

Hey IB, Without knowing what your experiences are, I can't comment on what they mean. I have to interpret mine by deciding if the info I get is helpful to me and others or it is just a lot of confusing events with no reason or logic behind them. I believe that there are two sides competing for our attention. One is good, the other is bad. If your life improves because of what you have experienced God wants to get your attention. You have been given a gift of insight. Don't stop asking.

Quote:I cant see how anyone could possibly question Jesus’s existence, the bibles, the millions of books that were written, the records that were kept still remain to this day, just not the their original format.

Oh, good....another fucking asshole.

Hey ALEM. I've been trying to make rational those very same concepts that you touched on. Ideas are invisible, so no one will take them as evidence for anything. When you are dealing with folks who are locked into just what can be presented physically as evidence, the notion of concept eludes them. They will not explore any chance that any of what God represents can make simple sense. Good for you for making a stand. Don't expect any kind of praise from the others. It is really hard to find the few who are here who are not rude to you for expressing yourself. Don't take it personally. People without love in their hearts can be very unkind. Let's work on them. RDK

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: I cant see how anyone could possibly question Jesus’s existence, the bibles, the millions of books that were written, the records that were kept still remain to this day, just not the their original format.

"Not in their original format" - translation: somebody wrote something down...dunno if it's the original thing or not.

Hey...where'd you get that "millions" number?

Oh, and what "records" that were from the same time - the same decade even - as Jesus still survive? I mean the ones that actually reference the J-dude.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: You could question the miracles, that’s fair enough, or question the crucifixion and the resurrection yes, but his existence, there shouldn’t be any doubt.

Why is that?

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: 1billion people wouldn’t be following a fictional character and a fictional character would not be one of the, if not THE most influential person ever to grace this earth.

Argumentum ad populum. That's a fallacy you know. PS: Harry Potter seems to be doing pretty well, as do several "fictional" characters in the food business.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: Athiests are fixed on asking for ‘Evidence’ in order to prove gods/jesus existence, yet nearly everything you believe yourself doesn’t have any evidence to support it, it all depende on how you perceive evidence.

Are we arguing the definition of "evidence" now?

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: To you guys, an apes skull from 1million years ago is evidence of ape-human evolution, which if looked at logically, is a much further stretch for the evidence then that of the bible and jesus.

Not really... that handy tool called "science" which is supposed to eliminate all possible bias seems to have done a handy job at supporting the theory of evolution, yet it keeps coming up empty on the Bible.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: It would be almost impossible to prove Jesus, or moses existence physically as you request, since your going back pretty far in history for any organic material to be preserved, most buildings from those days dnt stand today, everythings been blown up and rebuilt hundreds of times over since then.

We don't seem to have a problem 'proving' the existence of certain Egyptians from WAY further back than Jesus or Moses.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: You atheists are so adamant on proofs, yet you fail to observe any proofs for your own beliefs.

Atheists don't have beliefs. Humanists have beliefs. As a humanist, if I were to argue my position to you, I would have to defend my beliefs regarding humanism. I don't have to defend an "unbelief" in god/s.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: Ie according to professor hawkings, IF the expansion rate of the universe after the big bang (or beginning of time) had varied by 0.00000000000000000001% then stars could not form. Too slow and the universe would cave in on itself too fast and matter would have scattered everywhere, don’t forget gravity is a VERY week force.

Mathematically and scientifically this is not an act of a random explosion, it IS a controlled explosion, but controlled by who?

One of you sexy science boys want to explain wtf he's talking about here and how it represents a "controlled explosion"?

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: You believe intelligence and life somehow manifested itself into innate matter, the earyth was made of rocks, water, and metals, how could these molecules have interacted that caused them to intelligently think for themselves and form more complex molecules which can perform specific tasks.

This intelligence has reached as far what we are today, extremely complex organisms made of millions of different types of micro organisms, each and every one dependant on the other.

Can any atheists in here prove to me or show me evidence of how dead matter could suddenly start forming ‘living’ beings and possess intelligence?

[facepalm] This again?

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: Look around you and observe what you see, shit on the ground which has grown into trees and plants, then that matter transforms itself into animals, and that animals matter can transfer state into another animal and so on and so forth.

If I follow the grammar of your sentence, it sounds like you're saying trees and plants transform into animals. No one has ever suggested that.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: Then when that matter dies, it is reborn as new life. And it isn’t a small amount of matter, its ALL over earth, matter which thinks for itself…

It seems that this life and intelligence is so adamant on foring newer and more complex life forms, then why has this intelligence in the matter not manifested itself on other planets?

You say because there is no liquid water or amino acids, but explain to me the significance of these elements in creating intelligence?> what is the source of intelligence?

The fantasy scenarios you guys believe in is far more fictional and absurd than ANY religion.

Now I have no idea what point you're making.

Quote:Ideas are invisible, so no one will take them as evidence for anything.

Good ideas are invisible and so are bad ideas. Good ideas can be backed up by actual evidence. Your fucking fairy tales can not. When you claim to have a relationship with your fucking god it just tells me that you are a delusional twit with an overblown ego.

Get that hideous wall of spam off of my fucking thread.

Summerqueen might have the patience to dissect that shit but i sure as hell don't, you're making far too many 'points' (if they can be called that) to even start bothering with.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:46 am)RDK Wrote: Good for you for making a stand. Don't expect any kind of praise from the others. It is really hard to find the few who are here who are not rude to you for expressing yourself. Don't take it personally.

Oh i do wonder why this is? If i went to a christian bible bashing forum i'd be banned within seconds for posting my thoughts. You're lucky you're even able to continue posting this ridiculous shit and all you're getting is a few rude comments. WELL BOO FUCKING HOO. As far as i'm concerned we atheists are being very tolerant, in fact i think the world is far TOO tolerant to be putting up with this crap from imbeciles like you all the time.

Quote:People without love in their hearts can be very unkind. Let's work on them. RDK

Yes let's tell these heathens how they are all going to hell! It will boost our ego's and make us feel better about ourselves and our insignificant place in the universe!

You really are one sad, sad little man.

(May 6, 2011 at 12:59 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: Get that hideous wall of spam off of my fucking thread.

Summerqueen might have the patience to dissect that shit but i sure as hell don't, you're making far too many 'points' (if they can be called that) to even start bothering with.

Patience? Sweet pea, that's just me spinning my wheels so I don't go over the edge here at work. If I were at home, I'd have hit "ignore" with a hearty "fuck you."

Quote:People without love in their hearts can be very unkind. Let's work on them. RDK

This is the one that pissed me off. "Ooooo I don't believe in God, so I have no love in my heart."

Again, fuck you.

Nappy, if you teleport over, we just brought pizza into the office. Let's leave these people to their heavenly manna - I hope it's better than a Ninja Turtles party.

(May 6, 2011 at 11:18 am)alemcodon Wrote: I cant see how anyone could possibly question Jesus’s existence,

Uh... because there is NO EVIDENCE that he was a real person.

Quote:the bibles

Yeah, he's a central figure in the Babble. So what? We don't know who wrote the Babble and the accounts of Jesus were written DECADES after he supposedly died. And we don't even have the original writings. All we have is copies of copies.

Quote:the millions of books that were written,

"Millions"? In any case, so what? All books written about Jesus base their conclusions on the Babble, which is a poor source since none of the authors of the Babble ever claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Quite simply, there is NO primary source for information regarding this character.

Quote:the records that were kept still remain to this day, just not the their original format.

And what records would these be? Do you have any record or document detailing an instance where the Romans executed a Jewish preacher named Jesus? Do you have any writings from historians who were witnesses to Jesus?

Quote:You could question the miracles, that’s fair enough, or question the crucifixion and the resurrection yes, but his existence, there shouldn’t be any doubt.

Loads of doubt. Of course, believers would never acknowledge this. If you question the existence of your godboy, your entire religion comes crashing down.

Quote:1billion people wouldn’t be following a fictional character

Are you kidding? Do you believe Allah is real? Because Islam has about a billion followers. Not to mention all the gods that millions have followed throughout history.

Quote:and a fictional character would not be one of the, if not THE most influential person ever to grace this earth.

What has Jesus done? Nothing. All we have are unsubstantiated stories of what he supposedly did and what he supposedly said. Stories promoted by believers. Not to mention all the human suffering Jesus could have stopped and prevented if he simply said that slavery was immoral and an abomination. But he never even implied such a thing. Instead, he gave us guidelines about beating slaves. What a guy!

Quote:Athiests are fixed on asking for ‘Evidence’ in order to prove gods/jesus existence

Yeah, we're funny that way.

Quote:yet nearly everything you believe yourself doesn’t have any evidence to support it, it all depende on how you perceive evidence.

What? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:To you guys, an apes skull from 1million years ago is evidence of ape-human evolution, which if looked at logically, is a much further stretch for the evidence then that of the bible and jesus.

Wrong. We have other evidence that shows how the million year old skull connects to modern humans and apes. You have nothing that confirms Jesus actually lived.

Quote:It would be almost impossible to prove Jesus, or moses existence physically as you request, since your going back pretty far in history for any organic material to be preserved, most buildings from those days dnt stand today, everythings been blown up and rebuilt hundreds of times over since then.

We know about real people who lived well before Jesus supposedly lived.

Quote:Ie according to professor hawkings, IF the expansion rate of the universe after the big bang (or beginning of time) had varied by 0.00000000000000000001% then stars could not form. Too slow and the universe would cave in on itself too fast and matter would have scattered everywhere, don’t forget gravity is a VERY week force.

So what?

Quote:Mathematically and scientifically this is not an act of a random explosion, it IS a controlled explosion, but controlled by who?

Begging the question. You are assuming someone "controlled" the Big Bang.

Quote:You believe intelligence and life somehow manifested itself into innate matter, the earyth was made of rocks, water, and metals, how could these molecules have interacted that caused them to intelligently think for themselves and form more complex molecules which can perform specific tasks.

Where have any of us claimed that molecules "intelligently" could think for themselves?

Quote:Can any atheists in here prove to me or show me evidence of how dead matter could suddenly start forming ‘living’ beings and possess intelligence?

Nope. And a few hundred years ago we couldn't have explained what causes the sun to rise and set, what causes rain, disease, the tides, etc, etc.... And your point is.....?

Quote:The fantasy scenarios you guys believe in is far more fictional and absurd than ANY religion.

Yes, evolution is far more ridiculous than a man riding a winged horse up to heaven, a virgin birth, a man healing the sick with a touch of his hand, walking on water and rising up from the dead.