True, but proper Dogma should always be questioned

(May 8, 2011 at 10:59 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:I used to feel hate towards people before I became a Christian, just like you do towards me for what I believe in.

Ad homime response. Perhaps address my arguments rather than making patronising comments about me and your superiority. (implicit:I used to be like you, but now I'm better than you)



Hate you? Mate I don't know you well enough to hate you.I simply think the contents of your posts indicate you are a closed minded and ignorant fool. All that means is that I can't be bothered with you.

As for your claim of compassion,your smug and superior attitude suggest you have no understanding of the word. You simply reinforce one of my life observations: IE People who feel the need to claim a virtue or deny a vice, are usually lying,especially to themselves.


That's all I have to say to you. I was quite serious when I said I don't argue with apologists.EXCEPTION: I sometimes argue with Tacky who I like and respect.

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Quote:It's about giving answers to questions just as Physical Science seeks to provide answers for physical truths, apologetics and theology do not have to be opposed to materialism or science

Just so Tacky, nor are they -except of course when materialism or physical science contradicts dogma.

I assert there is no evidence for the existence of God(s) and that it is rational not to believe. That it is irrational to argue the existence of God a priori. I insist that such a belief be a posteriori. THAT is where science and religion/theology/apologetics part company.

In no way do I think I am superior to you in any way, or to anyone, sorry if it appeared that way. I am no better than anyone, even murders, rapists etc. No one is perfect and everyone has sinned, it is my belief and the teaching of Christianity that this is why we can not as you put it 'rationally' prove God's existence. In Christianity, we are seperated from God because of sin / unrighteousness and can only know God again through 'faith' in Jesus who was blameless. Because Jesus died on the cross, as we believe; that was to pay for our sins, only Jesus could do this because (as we believe) he is the Son of the living God and never sinned. Only someone who is without blame can take the blame of others upon themselves. We believe this was a sacrifice that God gave us, so that we may be forgiven and have atonement (at-one-ment) with God once more through faith in jesus. This is the untimate display of grace (undeserved love) that Christianity teaches throughout the Bible. There are some harsh things said in the Bible, that is a fact, which may be another reason why people do not or cannot accept it is true.

As I've already said, it is impossible for you to know God if you do not believe, and because of the sinful human nature, it becomes irrational that God should exist, unless you have faith. Nobody can prove God to you if you do not have faith. That is everyone's own choice to make, and I completely respect that.

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@tack - "There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post.

It is true that some so called Christians have diverted from the teachings of the Bible, and have given Christianity a negative and false representation. The word 'Christ'ian does indeed mean a follower of Jesus Christ and the teachings of righteousness he proclained in the Bible. Anyone who does not seek to follow the way of Jesus, is not a Christian. I just thought I would point that out.

glad you agree with my sig.

[quote='padraic' pid='135505' dateline='1304899905']
[quote]There isn't anything in the Bible that has ever been disproven,

Oh for suck sake! There's stupid and ignorant and then there are statements like that. We don't have to disprove ANYTHING,it's you who are making the claims, it's up to you to provide the evidence.Provide some or shut the fuck up. (sorry, feeling a bit frustrated)

Current archaeology:I refer you to " THE BIBLE UNEARTHED: Archaeology's New Vision Of Ancient Israel And the Origin Of Sacred Texts" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

EG There was no large Davidic kingdom and that Moses and the Exodus are pure myth.

[/quote]

People will believe things if them try hard enough. If you want to believe that arhaeology has disproved the Bible then that is up to you. The fact is, I cannot prove it is true to you if you do not want to accept it is. It is about faith, faith is irrational, but it dooesn't mean it is wrong in comparrison to what we know through science etc. For example, as I previously mentioned, people used to think the earth was flat and thought it ludricrous that it was anything but that. It is being close-minded to think there is nothig beyond what we can see with out own 2 eyes. Everyone has a soul, what happens to that when the body dies?

And the reason I believe in God is because he has changed my life, and I know this because of things that have happened to me. Furthermore, the Bible does not make sense if you are without faith, but if you have faith it makes sense and you suddenly realise that it is not irrational. I do not expect you to agree with me, or understand the faith I have. You will probably think I am a lunatic but if there was no God, things that I have come to know and experience would be unexplainable by science. At the end of the day, you belive what you want, I'll believe what I want, I just feel it is my duty to stand up for the gospel, which has given me a much happier life than I once had.

(May 9, 2011 at 8:06 am)Dan Wrote: People will believe things if them try hard enough. If you want to believe that arhaeology has disproved the Bible then that is up to you. The fact is, I cannot prove it is true to you if you do not want to accept it is. It is about faith, faith is irrational, but it dooesn't mean it is wrong in comparrison to what we know through science etc.

Any sane person reading this can instantly understand why most atheists do not want to give time to religious nut jobs.
You are correct, faith is irrational, BUT it IS wrong in so much of what science has to say because no where in science does it imply that a god exists. What you're saying is completely and utterly ludicrous, simply saying 'it doesn't mean i'm wrong' in now way legitimises your claims.

Example:
It's my belief that an invisible pink unicorn orbits the moon. Can you prove me wrong? No. Does that mean my belief is justified? NO.
For all we know there could be an invisible pink unicorn orbitting the moon, but seen as there is no way of knowing one way or another (UNLESS IT PRESENTS ITSELF) then all belief in such a thing is entirely irrational and unjustifiable.
No matter what some piece of text says.

Quote: For example, as I previously mentioned, people used to think the earth was flat and thought it ludricrous that it was anything but that. It is being close-minded to think there is nothig beyond what we can see with out own 2 eyes. Everyone has a soul, what happens to that when the body dies?

The example you used of people thinking the world was flat is a complete and utter myth, it was known by many astrologers and scientists for thousands of years that the world was round, it was only a small minority who believed the earth to be flat. Don't believe everything you see in films.
And it is being more close minded of you to just assume that we have something such as a soul. Science has already told us what happens when the body dies, go read a book, nowhere will it say we have a soul and we go to heaven. Unless you are using the bible as reference DOH!

Quote:And the reason I believe in God is because he has changed my life, and I know this because of things that have happened to me. Furthermore, the Bible does not make sense if you are without faith, but if you have faith it makes sense and you suddenly realise that it is not irrational. I do not expect you to agree with me, or understand the faith I have. You will probably think I am a lunatic but if there was no God, things that I have come to know and experience would be unexplainable by science. At the end of the day, you belive what you want, I'll believe what I want, I just feel it is my duty to stand up for the gospel, which has given me a much happier life than I once had.

Oh believe me my friend science has an explanation for what you believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

And how pray-tell exactly does experiencing something create fixed beliefs that are certainly and definitely false? He has subjective evidence, and he's using it for a subjective belief. Prove he is being irrational, illogical, or delusional please.

(May 9, 2011 at 9:07 am)tackattack Wrote: And how pray-tell exactly does experiencing something create fixed beliefs that are certainly and definitely false? He has subjective evidence, and he's using it for a subjective belief. Prove he is being irrational, illogical, or delusional please.

I just did, where is his justification? We can all sit there and say we've experienced shit, but for me to respect that and accept it as true just because he says so, is absolutley ridiculous!

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The bottom line is, why post on a thread about evidence for jesus, when he is not providing any evidence?
He may well have convinced himself that he believes in god, but why should anyone else take his word for it?

Fair enough he's voicing his opinion and saying it's what he believes i understand that, but he can't expect anything less than ridicule when he cannot backup his claims without anything but subjective evidence which is personal to him.

If i'm expected to roll over and say 'congrats man i completely understand your reasoning' then that's just absurd, frankly i think it's a joke that he believes what he does. And it sickens me that a fellow human being can be so duped as he is.

But hey, maybe i'm wrong and maybe he is right!

I have already explained my views, there is no reason to keep going round in circles. I am simply standing up for what I believe, whether it is true or not, and I do not expect you to believe me. And I stand up for the gospel that I believe in because without it, 'no one' can know true peace within, or true love (caring love), for others including their enemies. This is what the gospel teaches and these teachings are just because they have taught me peace and love for my enemies. Even if these could be obtained without the gospel, there is nothing more rewarding than peace and love for your enemies. Regardless of faith, is that not worth something?

(May 9, 2011 at 10:23 am)Dan Wrote: I have already explained my views, there is no reason to keep going round in circles. I am simply standing up for what I believe, whether it is true or not, and I do not expect you to believe me. And I stand up for the gospel that I believe in because without it, 'no one' can know true peace within, or true love (caring love), for others including their enemies. This is what the gospel teaches and these teachings are just because they have taught me peace and love for my enemies. Even if these could be obtained without the gospel, there is nothing more rewarding than peace and love for your enemies. Regardless of faith, is that not worth something?

I give up lol, i seriously do.

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It's not relevant whether such feelings are 'worth something' when talking about truth.

I'm as interested as the next guy to hear a theory on the purpose of life, why we are here etc. But believing something just because it is seen as 'good' is not a good reason in my opinion.

Quote:If you want to believe that arhaeology has disproved the Bible then that is up to you.

Wow...talk about planting ones head firmly up one's ass. The OT is a pile of shit, written centuries after the 'events' it claims to narrate. Archaeology has dismissed the entire world vision of the OT but assholes like you cling to your fairy tales.

What a pathetic individual you are. Just like your fucking 'god.'