(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?

Doesnt matter. I dont give a shit wether god exists or not, I still would not worship him because he would be a scum bag and the source of the absurdity.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?

yup..man made, unless aliens have infiltrated us or crabs have learned how to write love letters in the sand..

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?

Obviously both, since you werent specific at all. god could make rules and me could make rules as well. What use is this question?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?

Of course moral laws exist. The religious have their moral laws, our country and other countries have their moral laws, and no they are not "independent of humans" other than social instincts which come along with genetics to ensure the passing on of successful genes. This is 3 questions in one. In fact, each one of your questions has had at least three questions additional in them.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?

..if your god considered rape to be morally wrong, then why would he sit back and allow it to happen when he has the ability to stop it? If your god thinks its okay to not help rape vicitms, does that mean I TOO am also moral like god if I just sit back and watch a woman get raped?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?

most of them

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 7. Where did the laws of logic come from?

Inherent properties of the universe

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?

..the fuck are you talking about?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?

Why was I a Christian and now an atheist?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?

Is there a point to this shit?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 11. Do you believe that God does not exist?

LMFAO..do you believe that Thor does not exist?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 12. Do you think that God does not exist?

Do you think THOR does not exist?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 13. How do you think life began on Earth?

Open a fucking biology book, or take a fucking class..get an education.

1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
Here's a website that explains it in better detail than I can. Of course, what would make me want to worship him and not become a part of the resistance against him would be an entirely different matter.

2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
Odds are, it would be. I can surmise this because it seems like humans are the only creatures who would know to understand language to such a degree as to write entire phrases in the sand.

3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
Both would set rules. As it is in the real world, just whose rules would be followed would be determined by each individual. Notice that this is not a statement of what I think should be, but what I see in the world all the time.

4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
They certainly do exist. We create them all the time. Whether or not they exist outside of humans, I doubt it. We can get a clue as to what they are because they lead to the species surviving.

5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
If everybody but you believed it, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on to defend yourself.

6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
I would say that it's a tie between Islam and Christianity.

7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
People who actually bothered to listen to what people say and realise how full of shit they are.

8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
You'd be very surprised.

9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
Why do some Christians such as George Carlin and Julia Sweeney become Atheists?

10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
Thoughts are smaller ephemeral experiences that can accumulate into beliefs, among other possible gatherings of thoughts.

11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
The correct way to phrase it would be "Do you not believe that God exists?" And in that case, no.

12. Do you think that God does not exist?
Ibid.

13. How do you think life began on Earth?
I'll leave that question to scientists who are actually trying to answer that question instead of saying "Magic Man Done It."

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Ok, so I have written up a questionnaire for you all. You do not have to answer each of the questions, but I am interested in knowing what the different opinions of atheists are on these questions. It would be helpful if you explained your answers too, simple “yes” or “no” answers don’t really add much to the discussion. Thanks for filling this out!

P.S. Theists, feel free to answer these questions as well.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?

I do not know.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?

I presume you mean more generally, "How do I know it was made by an intelligence?" As man isn't necessarily the only mechanism capable of this feat. It could be man-made, ape-made (perhaps Washoe imitating her trainers), an alien, God, Satan, perhaps a poltergeist -- maybe the malevolent spirit of the dead woman from the Japanese horror movie "Ju-on". The conventional answer is that we infer human action by an artifact's possession of characteristics which we know characterize the acts of men -- though we would also need to rule out other possible agents or forces (e.g. symmetry is often inferred to be a sign of human activity, yet mushroom rings which grow in the forest have been incorrectly attributed to intelligent agency as a result of "over-interpreting" in this way). We know that humans create such beach artifacts, they show evidence of tool marks (whatever moved the sand thus, whether stick, hand or foot). So it's a process of ruling in (those things which are known to leave such traces on similar artifacts) and ruling things out (if God does not exist, it cannot be God; if the traces are fresh, it cannot have been Benjamin Franklin, as he's been dead too long.) Such inferences are by their nature speculative: we zero in on man because we have plenty of similar examples of the means, method and substance of the artifact, and we have no evidence of non-human artificers creating similar artifacts; but again, it's a hypothesis, not a deduction -- I have know way of knowing that this specific example artifact was not created by God who was taking time away from his Skeeball. In that instance, my inference turns out to be wrong.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?

I don't believe the "God of the Bible" is in control of anything. If he sets morality, it is along the prong of Euthyphro's Dilemma marked, "whatever I do is good, for I am God, hear me roar." No, really. I haven't given the question of the God of the Bible much consideration -- he's always changing. People claim to know what the Bible says, who the God of the Bible is and what his meaning and intent are. These people are fools. I'm sure God has a special place in hell reserved people who think they know exactly who he is. Some strains of Kabbalism postulate seven levels of meaning in the text, and it can take a lifetime to penetrate just a few of them. As a follower of a faith based on mysticism, the meaning of the "sacred" texts I subscribe to, like the bible, are a bottomless well -- you can drink from them forever and they will not run dry [Note 1]. As such I have more respect for the likes of Dame Julian of Norwich, St. John of the Cross, or the likes of the anonymous author of "The Cloud Of Unknowing" -- far more, than yahoos who claim to "know God" through the bible. Before I could hope to answer your question, I would have to know exactly who "the God of the Bible" is -- and that is something no one else can tell me.

[Note 1]: Specifically the Tao Te Ching and the so-called "Inner Chapters" of the Chuang Tse (aka the Zhuangzi; the inner chapters are so named as the surrounding chapters are presumed to be pseudoepigraphic); The Art Of War by Sun Tzu is another example of a text with unlimited depth.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?

Yes, depending on what you mean by "moral laws". I have recently -- just this past week, to be precise -- have had a perfect storm of influences and insight which I believe points the way for a naturalistic understanding of meaning and morality. I am not going to go into the details. I am still in the process of writing them up, and the answers will likely run to many pages of ideas. (I have outlined the general essay, and counting double space between items, the outline alone is longer than a page; and once I finish, I may attempt publication. For now, I'll just have to remain a shameless tease. )

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?

Depends on who you mean by "everyone" -- I presume you mean homo sapiens sapiens, and not any non-human entities (whether natural or supernatural). I'm sure after centuries of using cows for meat, they would be delighted to turn the tables and go in for a round of human raping (and I'm not sure I would blame them; social theories of justice have their consequences). Now, if everyone -- every human -- believed this. In the current context, it would be wrong. But contexts may change. If the male population were reduced to a few hundred individuals globally, one might have to reconsider the moral trade-off between rape and human extinction. I'm not sure what my new theory would say, as it is largely a "grand theory of almost everything", and the specific way it plays out in the particular is beyond my ken. The larger picture is that evolution builds some morals into us, and that would not change with the context; however the framework is not static, and context might matter. Again, the details are so far removed from the generalities that certainty cannot be had, but my intuition is that none of the relevant factors would change, and thus the morality currently on display would not be changed in any relevant aspects -- rape would remain immoral, regardless of what people choose. (Remember though, in biblical times, under God, rape was moral, in the context of war and conquest. Small changes can yield profound effects/changes, ala chaos theory and the butterfly effect.)

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?

The belief that we are fundamentally rational creatures. (That science describes reality is certainly in the running, but far behind the afore-mentioned. Religions are social creations and reflect the social conscience, enlightenment and reality of the believer. It is like the history of nations such as Russia and China. Attempts were made to "fast-forward" the society into modernity and 'First-world' class status; many people suffered horrendously as a result. You can't force fit progress and enlightenment on nations or people -- they will come to it in their own time. In the meantime, we must all help each other help ourselves.)

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 7. Where did the laws of logic come from?

That's a part of my grand TOE (Theory Of Everything). The laws of logic as expressed by men are an expression of natural forms of order pre-existing in the universe. In terms you might better understand, "the laws of logic are a reflection of the divine as expressed through certain other expressions of the divine, such as intelligent agents like man." For the details, you will just have to wait along with everybody else until I'm ready to spill.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?

This is a stupid question and you know it. Most of these questions are borderline stupid, as most of these have been adequately answered. While I understand you feel compelled to field these stalking horses in hopes of surprising your quarry, don't treat us like fucking idiots. We deserve better than this. If your God is indeed God, a God worthy of worship, he will demand of his elect that they treat their fellow man with love. Treating your fellow man as if he didn't have a brain in his head is not love. It's simply acting like a shit. I can only hope your God shields his eyes and looks away.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?

Likely for reasons privy only to them -- assuming they did so. You have no window on their souls. Do you know for absolute certain that they are in fact who they say they are? No, you do not. Only God knows what is written in their hearts and in the Book of Life. Do you know that the reasons they give in public and private are the reasons written in their hearts? No, you do not. I wasn't aware Carl had jumped ship, but there are as many good reasons to be a Christian as there are good reasons not to be one. And I'm sure the bad reasons for both outnumber the good. I'll tell you what. You explain why I became a Taoist, and I'll take a stab at understanding Carl's public confessions on the matter. Failing that, don't be a hypocrite and ask us to do what you aren't willing to face going the other direction. But then, I have every confidence that you are sure you know why I no longer believe in God and follow the Tao (if you are indeed Calvinist, that would be arrogant in the extreme, claiming to know what God has written in his heart. How obscene!).

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?

There are multiple frameworks I have for the question: conventional naive phenomenological understanding, my TOE, some recent ideas about the nature of the psychological phenomena of "being certain", Humean empiricism, Kantian idealism, my theories on the nature of language and meaning from my younger days, or any of a range of epistemological stances current among philosophers. What flavor of "if you want a substantial answer, state your terms and ask a substantial question" would you like? Perhaps you'd like to answer a question my new TOE handles with aplomb: Why do we get distressed -- really emotionally upset -- when our favorite television character gets killed off at the end of the season (or even if the fate of the character is "left hanging"); why do we care about somebody/something we know doesn't exist?

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 11. Do you believe that God does not exist?

I have not yet met a god whom I believe exists. As noted, that doesn't rule out the divine, but it does rule out supernatural sources of it that I have heretofore encountered. But then, tomorrow is another day. I have only met an infinitesimal sample of all possible Gods.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 12. Do you think that God does not exist?

Specific Gods, yes, many I am convinced do not exist. Any arbitrary god or the potential of a god which departs significantly from the likes men have been inventing since time immemorial, it is impossible to say.

(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 13. How do you think life began on Earth?

I don't have a guess, scientific, theological or otherwise.

I'll definitely participate in pointless threads ---- if they're fun. Hell, I've made several pointless threads for some lighthearted amusement, but this seems like it has an agenda. Most of these queries feel more like loaded questions, and knowing who they came from ... I think I'll pass.

Crappy pointless questions.

To be expected really.

It may be childish from me, but a person as dishohest as SW doesn't deserve a straight response IMO, only mockery at best. Proof? Its in the pudding.

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@Cingin Cain: Yeah, most of those questions are loaded...

(May 20, 2011 at 5:46 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Crappy pointless questions.

To be expected really.

Actually they are some of the basic questions in life; I knew you wouldn't be able to answer them given your worldview though.

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(May 20, 2011 at 3:13 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote: I'll definitely participate in pointless threads ---- if they're fun. Hell, I've made several pointless threads for some lighthearted amusement, but this seems like it has an agenda. Most of these queries feel more like loaded questions, and knowing who they came from ... I think I'll pass.

It's kind of humorous you find a thread outlining some of the biggest questions in life to be "pointless".

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(May 20, 2011 at 10:23 am)LastPoet Wrote: It may be childish from me, but a person as dishohest as SW doesn't deserve a straight response IMO, only mockery at best. Proof? Its in the pudding.

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@Cingin Cain: Yeah, most of those questions are loaded...

Dishonest eh? Could you please back your assertion up with some examples where I have been dishonest? Or is this just all talk because my questions point out the weaknesses in your worldview?

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I found your post overall very interesting, although this bothered me. The lack of proof backing this assertion up was not something I’d expect from someone as yourself who usually has his ducks in a row. Care to given some evidence?

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To be candid, I have never seen an atheist give a thought out response to this question. You would think that if it is such an “intelligence insulting” question then the answer should be easy. So I will just assume you folded on this one (given your pretended outrage and intentional dodging of the question). I don’t blame you one bit, non-rational events never give rise to rational minds.

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You put up a pretty good front, but I am starting to believe you are not as “informed” as you pretend to be. Considering that Carl Wieland has been a professing Christian since 1979 and the managing editor of “Creation” magazine since 1984 and you say you didn’t know he had jumped ship leads me to believe you didn’t know who I was even talking about in the first place. As to whether he is an actual Christian or not is not up to me. He professes to be one, and I have seen nothing in his actions to doubt him. As to the validity of your supposed salvation, all I can say is, if you die a non-believer you were never a believer. God finishes all the saving work he starts in His creatures. I am not aware of any Calvinists who profess to know what God has written in people's hearts. Seems like someone is knocking down straw men to me.

(May 20, 2011 at 2:40 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(May 20, 2011 at 3:13 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote: I'll definitely participate in pointless threads ---- if they're fun. Hell, I've made several pointless threads for some lighthearted amusement, but this seems like it has an agenda. Most of these queries feel more like loaded questions, and knowing who they came from ... I think I'll pass.

It's kind of humorous you find a thread outlining some of the biggest questions in life to be "pointless".

Really?! You actually think that THESE questions outline the biggest questions in life?!

Who’s life? Yours? Cause if you think that YOUR questions outline the biggest questions in all our lives – Well than, someone thinks awful highly of himself.

This is why everybody hates you man. You live on another fucking planet. You see what you want to see and you think that these cryptic questions with multiple answers say some profound thing that we’re all missing. You’re a wannabe prophet with nothing to offer and none of the style. You should keep this greasy existential sophistry in your church and leave legitimate conjecture to those more qualified to discuss it.

Does God exist? What would prove his existence? Are there moral laws we should adhere to? Where does logic come from? Where did our minds come from? How did life begin on earth? Who makes the rules?

You are absolutely right! The fact that philosophers have been debating these questions for centuries upon centuries certainly means they are not some of the biggest questions in life! You're still small time. If you don't like me and think this thread is pointless, don't post on my thread and save both of us the trouble.

1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?

None. Because you could never discount the possibility of an ancient and intellectuality superior alien playing games.

2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?

Probably. The only time I have ever seen these words written before they have been man made.

3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?

How could I know the mind of God. (If he were real)

4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?

No. They are behavioural characteristics evolved to allow, say, humans to exist in social groups.

5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?

If I were on Earth then presumably I would believe it would be right and not think it wrong. Also, the people being raped would think it right and proper.

6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?

They all have the same ultimate potential for evil.

7. Where did the laws of logic come from?

The brain.

8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?

From chaos comes order and from order comes chaos.

9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?

You'd have to ask them.

10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?

I don't positively accept as truth that for which there is no evidence or verisimilitude.

11. Do you believe that God does not exist?

Yes. In the same way that I believe Zuess, Odin, Sherlock Holmes etc. do not exist.

12. Do you think that God does not exist?

See 11.

13. How do you think life began on Earth?

Beautiful, fantastic and amazing chemistry.