I think much of the emphasis in remembering 9-11 is in the wrong place.  The civilians who died in the towers, as a whole, were not heroes.  They were just people like the rest of us who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  It was a tragedy for sure, and should be remembered in that light.  Some of them performed heroic acts, as did many of the responding police and firefighters, and those should be remembered for their heroism.  But another huge reason we should commemorate 9-11 is to keep the need for vigilance and security fresh in our minds.  History can teach us valuable lessons and that's why I believe it's important to commemorate events such at 9-11, Pearl Harbor and D-Day.

As far as the flag waving goes - I've never been an "America, love it or leave it" believer.  I was at a ball game in Oakland on Labor Day, which I have done zillions of times before, but for the first time I thought about how weird it was to be standing there with my hat over my heart, pledging my allegiance to a country.  My allegiance is to God and to what is right.  I've lived in three Asian countries and visited Canada and I happen to think that our country is better than those and, all-in-all, I'm happy and proud to be an American.  I think we've done more good for the world than bad and I will defend this country to death if I believe it's right to do so. There's not many countries in the world that haven't trampled on someone, but at the same time, I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to any country or human institution.

Yeah, I saw that. Tasteless doesn't even cut it. But hey, everything to make a buck, isn't it. Although I guess that one backfired like a bottlecap mine.

(September 12, 2016 at 2:45 pm)Lek Wrote: I think much of the emphasis in remembering 9-11 is in the wrong place. The civilians who died in the towers, as a whole, were not heroes.

Sure, and that makes it even more tragic. The firemen and police officers weren't heroes by choice either. Some committed themselves to saving others, which makes them heroes in my world. Trying to save lives by putting your own on the lines is always heroism.

9/11 shouldn't be forgotten or mocked because, as people have said, it was an event where people died and others lost their loved ones. It was traumatic for millions of people. You've even got people who to this day are in therapy being treated for anxiety in response 9/11. That's the extent to which it shook some people.

This "America deserves it because it bombs other countries" narrative is rancid and insensitive to the victims who have nothing to do with America's warfare. It's as vile as people who justify airstrikes on innocents in Syria and Iraq in the hope that it might get an ISIS member among the innocent. It's the exact same thing.

(September 12, 2016 at 2:51 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: This "America deserves it because it bombs other countries" narrative is rancid and insensitive to the victims who have nothing to do with America's warfare. It's as vile as people who justify airstrikes on innocents in Syria and Iraq in the hope that it might get an ISIS member among the innocent. It's the exact same thing.

Of course it was a vile act and thousands of innocents losts their lives. But I remember the original coverage where some argued that it had absolutely nothing to do with America's policy. The most stupid arguments I heard was the they hate us because we are free one.

That was always my major gripe. The victims being instrumentalised to brush the motifs of the attacks under a big flag carpet. It's always the most stupid approach to not ask why this has happened, since understanding your enemy is the first step to defeating them. In that department America's policy, not America in itself to make that distinction, has been severly lacking. The narrative has been made to suit the propaganda machine running on overdrive at the time.

(September 12, 2016 at 9:38 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 11:53 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: 9-11, Never Forget?

Here is my spin, and you can hate me all you want for it.

America the great imposes itself on countries that have been around longer than America, and it is surprised when a retaliation happens due to what we are wrongfully doing to other countries; i.e., those unspeakable acts that cannot be disclosed to the public due to national security.
Therefore, I will forget what happened on 9-11.

It does not make me less American. It actually makes me more of an American for having the gumption to stand up to the government.

So you're an apologist for murderers.

I didn't read him that way. Explaining is not excusing. Having lived in Iran before and then through the 1978 Revolution, having learnt about the 1953 CIA-sponsored coup that returned the Shah to autocracy, I can understand why many Iranians hate us -- even as I reject the terrorism they turned to as a result.

Know thy enemy is good advice. Seeking to understand his motivations doesn't make one an apologist.

(September 12, 2016 at 2:46 pm)abaris Wrote: Yeah, I saw that. Tasteless doesn't even cut it. But hey, everything to make a buck, isn't it. Although I guess that one backfired like a bottlecap mine.

(September 12, 2016 at 2:45 pm)Lek Wrote: I think much of the emphasis in remembering 9-11 is in the wrong place. The civilians who died in the towers, as a whole, were not heroes.

Sure, and that makes it even more tragic. The firemen and police officers weren't heroes by choice either. Some committed themselves to saving others, which makes them heroes in my world. Trying to save lives by putting your own on the lines is always heroism.

But they were there by choice. They joined their services voluntarily. And while I don't know police protocol, as a firefighter I was trained that you need not, and indeed should not, enter a building threatening collapse. The firefighters in there were there pursuing their duty beyond what was called for by their protocol; they gave their lives, almost certainly knowingly, and that commands my solemn respect.

They didn't have to be inside. That they were is a measure of their devotion to duty.

Anyone got a Kleenex? I'm leaking a little.

(September 12, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:9/11 wasn't a "defeat" because it wasn't a battle or even part of a war. It was a tragedy, and is remembered as a tragedy just like many others are. Innocent civilians lost their lives...that's why we remember.

We pull the same thing every year with Pearl Harbor, Divi Tiberio.  We weren't at war then, either.

I'm not sure what your point is. We remember Pearl Harbor because so many people died in a horrific act, the same reason we remember 9/11. Other countries do the same thing with national tragedies. In November, I'm sure France will remember the attacks that happened the year before. Every year, the Japanese remember the people who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So to answer your original question, yes, this is pretty normal behavior. Honestly, I'd find it very strange if people didn't have some sort of remembrance for people who have died.

(September 12, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote: But, WTF.  We celebrate the end of WWI with mattress and car sales.

There's a big difference, in my opinion, between remembering a day when a lot of people lost their lives (a bad thing), and remembering a day when a ceasefire was declared or a war ended (a good thing). One is mourning, one is celebration. Sales are a form of celebration in retail, so I'm not sure what's so WTF about it.

(September 12, 2016 at 1:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:9/11 wasn't a "defeat" because it wasn't a battle or even part of a war. It was a tragedy, and is remembered as a tragedy just like many others are. Innocent civilians lost their lives...that's why we remember.

We pull the same thing every year with Pearl Harbor, Divi Tiberio.  We weren't at war then, either.

But, WTF.  We celebrate the end of WWI with mattress and car sales.

Right after 911 didn't Bush straight up tell everyone to go to Disney Land and Giuliani said to "go shopping"?

(September 12, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: But they were there by choice. They joined their services voluntarily.

I certainly appreciate your input, since you were in the emergency services too. I was a medic and ambulance driver for four years, as I said repeatedly. I don't know what they told you when joining up, but what the hammered into our heads when being schooled was always self protection comes before protecting others. If a situation is deemed to dangerous to handle, get yourself to safety.

So, according to this lesson, since I don't think they teach a different approach in the US, I consider them heroes. They stayed on to save lives. I never been in that kind of situation and don't know if I had the guts, but simply joining the services doesn't buy what they were in for.

(September 12, 2016 at 4:47 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: Right after 911 didn't Bush straight up tell everyone to go to Disney Land and Giuliani said to "go shopping"?

If they did, I expect it was an attempt to tell people to go on with their lives as normally as possible. The US had been attacked, but if people panicked there might have been more chaos than there was.

Days after the 7/7 bombings of the London Underground, people were encouraged to use the service as per usual, because ultimately these were singular events and should be treated as such.