(September 12, 2016 at 5:24 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(September 12, 2016 at 4:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: The studies I've read on the subject, seem to point more to the community and support theists have associated with  their religion, not the religion itself.

I will read these later to see if they say anything different.

Yep, just as I thought.

The studies that are quoted in the first link in Chad's post (Larson, Gartner, Koenig) point to religious attendance, not the religion itself.

As a Forbes article says in reference to these and other studies, "Interestingly, there is a large body of research on the health, economic, educational, and other benefits (or lack thereof) of religion. Most researchers have found that the myriad non-spiritual benefits of religion are related to regular religious attendance. It is less the strength of your faith than the dependability of your arrival at religious services and other events that matters. This suggests that the mechanism for these benefits may be as much or more the social network that a religious community provides than the actual practice of the religion in a theological sense. Or it may be that those with the most faith also attend services regularly.

Also, all the results presented here are benefits found to derive from religious attendance or involvement in any religion, so there is nothing here to suggest that one’s particular beliefs are the key to the results."


So, as much as you'd like to believe the benefits are due to the religion itself, it is actually due to the community the 'ingroup' receives as part of the religion.

In other words, the same benefits could be received from regular attendance to ANY group where the sense of community is included.

Of course you say that without an ounce of proof to counteract the findings that are specific to religious attendance. More research is needed to say otherwise.

Well, you know, if you eat like a small rabbit there is research which suggests you may push the bounds of longevity. The one hang up is .. who would want to live that life? The situation is parallel for whatever de-stressing/longevity finding there may be showing an advantage for god belief.

(September 12, 2016 at 5:31 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 12, 2016 at 5:24 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Yep, just as I thought.

The studies that are quoted in the first link in Chad's post (Larson, Gartner, Koenig) point to religious attendance, not the religion itself.

As a Forbes article says in reference to these and other studies, "Interestingly, there is a large body of research on the health, economic, educational, and other benefits (or lack thereof) of religion. Most researchers have found that the myriad non-spiritual benefits of religion are related to regular religious attendance. It is less the strength of your faith than the dependability of your arrival at religious services and other events that matters. This suggests that the mechanism for these benefits may be as much or more the social network that a religious community provides than the actual practice of the religion in a theological sense. Or it may be that those with the most faith also attend services regularly.

Also, all the results presented here are benefits found to derive from religious attendance or involvement in any religion, so there is nothing here to suggest that one’s particular beliefs are the key to the results."


So, as much as you'd like to believe the benefits are due to the religion itself, it is actually due to the community the 'ingroup' receives as part of the religion.

In other words, the same benefits could be received from regular attendance to ANY group where the sense of community is included.

Of course you say that without an ounce of proof to counteract the findings that are specific to religious attendance. More research is needed to say otherwise.

I do not doubt that a belief in an afterlife consisting of endless bliss is beneficial to the health of those who actually believe it, especially when they're unable to find contentment in their situation on this side of death. But I don't see that it would make much of a difference whether one's hope was located in reveries of the Greek Elysium Fields, Mahomet's sensual Paradise, John of Patmos' bedazzled fortress, or any other notion of unalloyed peace and comfort that knows no limit. The same can probably be said of the social advantages that accompany group membership; one is able to feel part of a cause that includes a sense of higher purpose, camaraderie with like-minded individuals, and the assistance that can be depended upon when confronted with hardship. Whether the object of one's devotion and social affiliation is a deity that is supposed to reside atop a mountain, in another dimension, in dead ancestors, or is altogether non-religious but political or philanthropic, I cannot see that this makes any essential difference, so long as the similar needs, that we all for the most part share, are met.

(September 12, 2016 at 6:01 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Well, you know, if you eat like a small rabbit there is research which suggests you may push the bounds of longevity.  The one hang up is .. who would want to live that life?  The situation is parallel for whatever de-stressing/longevity finding there may be showing an advantage for god belief.

If you hate your life, you wouldn't. If you love your life, you would.

Soaking up all the pleasurables they can tends to take people out of life quite quickly.

If you can get past the idea that you're lying to yourself, then I can see how it could be comforting. My mind just doesn't work like that though. The thought of it feels like intellectual deception.

(September 12, 2016 at 5:31 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(September 12, 2016 at 5:24 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Yep, just as I thought.

The studies that are quoted in the first link in Chad's post (Larson, Gartner, Koenig) point to religious attendance, not the religion itself.

As a Forbes article says in reference to these and other studies, "Interestingly, there is a large body of research on the health, economic, educational, and other benefits (or lack thereof) of religion. Most researchers have found that the myriad non-spiritual benefits of religion are related to regular religious attendance. It is less the strength of your faith than the dependability of your arrival at religious services and other events that matters. This suggests that the mechanism for these benefits may be as much or more the social network that a religious community provides than the actual practice of the religion in a theological sense. Or it may be that those with the most faith also attend services regularly.

Also, all the results presented here are benefits found to derive from religious attendance or involvement in any religion, so there is nothing here to suggest that one’s particular beliefs are the key to the results."


So, as much as you'd like to believe the benefits are due to the religion itself, it is actually due to the community the 'ingroup' receives as part of the religion.

In other words, the same benefits could be received from regular attendance to ANY group where the sense of community is included.

Of course you say that without an ounce of proof to counteract the findings that are specific to religious attendance. More research is needed to say otherwise.

I've read the studies that the author of the link to the article you posted (Larson, Gartner, etc). ALL the benefits are correlated with regular religious attendance (and the associated community that goes along with it), not the belief itself.

Oh, and to add, the the " large body of research on the health, economic, educational, and other benefits" mentioned in the Forbes article, are many of the same studies mentioned in the article you posted a link to.

(September 12, 2016 at 4:34 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(September 12, 2016 at 2:31 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I'm surprised that few have made reference to any studies or scientific literature. I think the general unbiased consensus is that religion tends have a net positive mental health benefit:

http://baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/...health.pdf
http://roa.sagepub.com/content/27/2/197.short

So does watching a lot of comedy videos.  Doing some form of meditation.  Basically, religion falls into the same category as every other escape from reality.

Sure, reducing stress has health benefits-- and meditation for many IS a religious practice.  I'd say that Catholic prayer, for example, is essentially mantra-speaking.

But faith involves a suspension of disbelief, even in the face of logic.  This means that a person of faith has ingrained in them the possibility. . . maybe not the expectation, but the possibility. . . that anything can happen.

This kind of belief allows for Hail Mary events, which rarely but not-never, help people in life.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:53 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 4:22 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What are an atheist's beliefs?

I was referring to his belief that "faith" mean's human belief and while certainly it is used that way today, the bible clearly states in many places it is not made by man, not belief, it is a gift of God.

It does not matter if there is or isn't a God in this instance, the syntax and context is crystal clear on it's ancient usage and meaning.

Which is why I use the Superman example, the lore is crystal clear: He is weakened by kryptonite, not samsonite.

"Don't be silly, Superman doesn't exist outside of fiction. So what weakens him is irrelevant to our reality."

(September 11, 2016 at 9:57 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 9:21 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: Don't make me handle you, your serpent!

FIFY

Mah serpent is far too much for any one person to handle. Though we'll all have fun trying.

(September 12, 2016 at 7:38 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 4:53 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: I was referring to his belief that "faith" mean's human belief and while certainly it is used that way today, the bible clearly states in many places it is not made by man, not belief, it is a gift of God.

It does not matter if there is or isn't a God in this instance, the syntax and context is crystal clear on it's ancient usage and meaning.

Which is why I use the Superman example, the lore is crystal clear: He is weakened by kryptonite, not samsonite.

"Don't be silly, Superman doesn't exist outside of fiction. So what weakens him is irrelevant to our reality."

Oh to hell with it, Stimbo, let's just remake everything in our own image and pat ourselves on the solipsist back.
What's a fun-house without a hall of mirrors?

---

(September 12, 2016 at 7:40 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 9:57 pm)bennyboy Wrote: FIFY

Mah serpent is far too much for any one person to handle. Though we'll all have fun trying.

You're adorable