(September 15, 2016 at 6:20 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 6:12 am)Alex K Wrote: Your point in favour of having babies develop in a mother's womb is not lost on me, I'm half describing what I find desirable, and half the direction I expect society to take. Where the line runs between those two for me personally, I'm not completely certain myself.

I think the external development and delivery of the child would be highly detrimental to the bond a mother has with the child. The woman's body goes through massive hormonal change, nesting instincts kick in, and the moment of birth for all it's pain, is a major bonding moment as a cocktail flood of hormones rush in stimulating love and empathy as well as prepare the mothers body for breast feeding.

But I suppose they'll have a pill for all that.

Yeah, I have to agree with you here, Ark. Most people don't have children because they are consciously concerned about perpetuating the species (much in the same way that men don't consciously prefer curvaceous women because they bare the hallmarks of fertility). People have babies because it feels good emotionally. Because, the love they experience is so powerful and fulfilling. You take away the joy (and pain) of parenthood...well, what's the point of having kids at all after that?

(September 15, 2016 at 8:20 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:16 am)Arkilogue Wrote: No, I wouldn't. I don't like an audience when I'm having sex with my wife.

No, it's because they've demonstrated reliably and consistency of word and action.


Tell me this, with all the thoughts that run in and out of your head, would you want someone monitoring all of them and making notes about what you should and shouldn't be thinking?  I'm sure you have absolute control over your mind and there's nothing that you'd be embarrassed about being on display for everyone else to see...

Can you even imagine the absolutely horrifying chaos that would result if everyones immediate thoughts were on public display?

I would be perfectly ok with it as long as I knew people would only act in either detaining me and "treating" me if I had criminal thoughts I actually intended to act on. Those same people would be monitored themselves.

I would prefer if an A.I. did this, but we're only talking hypothetically here anyway. So humans will have to do absent of anything better.

Who watches the watchers?

A.I.??? What would it ever need humans for? Why do you assume the God-like A.I. would be benevolent?

(September 15, 2016 at 8:33 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:20 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: I would be perfectly ok with it as long as I knew people would only act in either detaining me and "treating" me if I had criminal thoughts I actually intended to act on. Those same people would be monitored themselves.

I would prefer if an A.I. did this, but we're only talking hypothetically here anyway. So humans will have to do absent of anything better.

Who watches the watchers?

A.I.??? What would it ever need humans for? Why do you assume the God-like A.I. would be benevolent?

Other watchers.


I don't assume anything. In fact I'm very much terrified that we're building an A.I. that will destroy us. It's the greatest threat society will ever face. It will also be our last invention, no matter what.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:33 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 6:20 am)Arkilogue Wrote: I think the external development and delivery of the child would be highly detrimental to the bond a mother has with the child. The woman's body goes through massive hormonal change, nesting instincts kick in, and the moment of birth for all it's pain, is a major bonding moment as a cocktail flood of hormones rush in stimulating love and empathy as well as prepare the mothers body for breast feeding.

But I suppose they'll have a pill for all that.

Yeah, I have to agree with you here, Ark.  Most people don't have children because they are consciously concerned about perpetuating the species (much in the same way that men don't consciously prefer curvaceous women because they bare the hallmarks of fertility).  People have babies because it feels good emotionally.  Because, the love they experience is so powerful and fulfilling.  You take away the joy (and pain) of parenthood...well, what's the point of having kids at all after that?

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone

Lot's of profitable reasons: Raising armies/cults, perpetuating a lineage or dynasty, steady supply of fetal stem cell material, slave trade, organ harvest, medical experimentation, increased supply of state live stock. Lot's and lot's of completely horrifying reasons to turn a human child into a commodity when there are no parents to be concerned.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:36 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:33 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Who watches the watchers?

A.I.??? What would it ever need humans for? Why do you assume the God-like A.I. would be benevolent?

Other watchers.


I don't assume anything. In fact I'm very much terrified that we're building an A.I. that will destroy us. It's the greatest threat society will ever face. It will also be our last invention, no matter what.

And who watches those watchers?

Soon no one is living, just watching someone watching someone watching someone until civilization grinds to a halt and every watcher dies from lack of having lived.

Such a state of surveillance will never achieve peace, only a paralyzing out of fear and there will always be rebel groups fighting and destabilizing it with asymmetric guerrilla warfare.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:49 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:36 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Other watchers.


I don't assume anything. In fact I'm very much terrified that we're building an A.I. that will destroy us. It's the greatest threat society will ever face. It will also be our last invention, no matter what.

And who watches those watchers?

Soon no one is living, just watching someone watching someone watching someone until civilization grinds to a halt and every watcher dies from lack of having lived.

Such a state of surveillance will never achieve peace, only a paralyzing out of fear and there will always be rebel groups fighting and destabilizing it with asymmetric guerrilla warfare.

No such thing will happen. There will be a method to it. Everyone will be watched. People will hardly be involved with it, except where necessary.

No guerilla warfare or rebellion of any kind will be possible. Such a state would be invincible. That's the only way you can achieve an Utopia.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:33 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Who watches the watchers?

I believe a ready supply of mirrors should do the trick.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:51 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:49 am)Arkilogue Wrote: And who watches those watchers?

Soon no one is living, just watching someone watching someone watching someone until civilization grinds to a halt and every watcher dies from lack of having lived.

Such a state of surveillance will never achieve peace, only a paralyzing out of fear and there will always be rebel groups fighting and destabilizing it with asymmetric guerrilla warfare.

No such thing will happen. There will be a method to it. Everyone will be watched. People will hardly be involved with it, except where necessary.

No guerilla warfare or rebellion of any kind will be possible. Such a state would be invincible. That's the only way you can achieve an Utopia.

Through force. All hail the new system, same as the old system.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:53 am)Alex K Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:33 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Who watches the watchers?

I believe a ready supply of mirrors should do the trick.

On a similar tangent, I've always wanted to build a geodesic sphere and line the faceted interior with mirrors...and bring some glow in the dark bubbles.

(September 15, 2016 at 8:51 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 8:49 am)Arkilogue Wrote: And who watches those watchers?

Soon no one is living, just watching someone watching someone watching someone until civilization grinds to a halt and every watcher dies from lack of having lived.

Such a state of surveillance will never achieve peace, only a paralyzing out of fear and there will always be rebel groups fighting and destabilizing it with asymmetric guerrilla warfare.

No such thing will happen. There will be a method to it. Everyone will be watched. People will hardly be involved with it, except where necessary.

No guerilla warfare or rebellion of any kind will be possible. Such a state would be invincible. That's the only way you can achieve an Utopia.

Just so I'm getting this right..  Your idea of a utopia is an invincible, all-knowing state that can track your every thought and can convict you of crimes just for thinking about them?