(September 15, 2016 at 2:13 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm)Lek Wrote: Standing up for all citizens' rights is what I'm for.  Those who demand that someone must be allowed to use the restroom for the sex of which they are physically opposite, are not considering the rights of many women, men and mothers of young children.  The issue is one-dimensional to them.  What's wrong with gender neutral bathrooms?  And yes, sex is and always has been about what sex organs one has.  I'm left-handed and have always had to accommodate  myself to a right-handed world.  I've never tried to force Target to sell notebook binders with rings on the right side of the binder.  I just lay my arm on the rings and deal with a little discomfort. That's life.  It's not like I want to make a transgender who believes they are male us a male restroom at the risk of harassment or bodily harm.  I want to provide them with a comfortable and safe place to meet their needs.  There are others in the world who have their concerns to be met also.  Jesus loves everybody, not just transgenders, as do I.

Forcing transgendered people to use a "gender neutral bathroom" is basically forcing them to use a bathroom labeled "transgendered people," which puts a TARGET on their back, and sends forth the message, "you're not a man OR a woman, you're a weird thing that we don't know what else to do with, so go here."  

I don't think that anyone is forced to use a gender neutral or family bathroom. Although I do think these aren't a bad idea for a number of reasons. Also, I don't think that the reason for segregated or distinct bathrooms, is to re-enforce a psychological gender.

Quote:And people partaking in this discussion who refuse to distinguish between genitalia and gender are simply WRONG.  You need to remove yourself from the debate and get educated before trying to come back in and speak on the behalf of the transgendered.

I don't think that the science is as clear as you make it out to be. But even if it is given that this is the case, I think that it is more your side that is failing to distinguish between biological sex, and gender in this case as much as you are accusing of it.

(September 15, 2016 at 3:36 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that anyone is forced to use a gender neutral or family bathroom.  Although I do think these aren't a bad idea for a number of reasons.   Also, I don't think that the reason for segregated or distinct bathrooms, is to re-enforce a psychological gender.

Separate gender neutral and family bathrooms are fine to set up. I don't think anyone is arguing against the existence of them. What I personal take offense to is people telling me that those are the solution to this issue. It's like hanging up big signs saying "white restroom" and "color restroom".

(September 15, 2016 at 3:36 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that the science is as clear as you make it out to be. But even if it is given that this is the case, I think that it is more your side that is failing to distinguish between biological sex, and gender in this case as much as you are accusing of it.

No, the science is not perfectly clear yet because we don't completely understand the brain. And yet we do know it is an artifact of the brain that exists. Gender isn't just what's in your pants. We do know that much so far. Just because we don't have the full picture yet doesn't mean you get to dismiss it. I'm honestly tired of people calling me a man in a dress, so please don't get into a debate about what "side" is more justified.

(September 15, 2016 at 2:13 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Forcing transgendered people to use a "gender neutral bathroom" is basically forcing them to use a bathroom labeled "transgendered people," which puts a TARGET on their back, and sends forth the message, "you're not a man OR a woman, you're a weird thing that we don't know what else to do with, so go here."  

And people partaking in this discussion who refuse to distinguish between genitalia and gender are simply WRONG.  You need to remove yourself from the debate and get educated before trying to come back in and speak on the behalf of the transgendered.

I'm not trying to speak on behalf of transgenders. From what you said I can get a feeling for how it would feel to be singled out.  When I was in school I was terribly uncoordinated.  When we were in the schoolyard picking up teams for a ball game I was always one of the last to be picked.  I was harassed for striking out or for dropping a fly ball.  I was different and just had to learn to deal with it.  I went on to distance running and excelled at that.  My experiences made me stronger.  I could have asked that they wouldn't allow baseball in the school, so I wouldn't be singled out, but that's not the way life is.  As a society, we can't smooth over everybody's discomforts.  We can only do our best to accommodate everybody in the best way possible.  

It really burns me up when I hear about a small business that goes under because they can't afford to make the changes necessary to meet government requirements for the handicapped.  This happens when they are perfectly willing to assist any handicapped person to get up stairs, etc.  We need to realize our limitations and try to finds ways to deal with situations ourselves.  Life isn't always 100% even.

This is anecdotal, but it illustrates my point.  Another guy and myself were in the gym locker room wondering why the owner didn't put mirrors above the sinks.  There is a full-length mirror against one wall and a mirror on an another wall that is upper body height.  We talked to the owner and he said that the only way he could put mirrors above the sinks is if he can put a mirror at the sink which could be used by a person in a wheelchair.  He just doesn't have the space or the means to do that.  He said he has one wheelchair bound person who uses the facility.  Because of the need to provide for him exactly as much as everybody else, men who want to shave must walk back and forth from the sink to the mirror every time they need to rinse the razor, as does the handicapped guy who must go back and forth as well.  So everybody must be inconvenienced, even though there is a simple fix for the problem for 99%. To top it off, I don't know the guy, but there's a good chance that he would be fine with the fix.

We on both sides of the issue must be concerned with the rights and feelings of the other side as well our own.  This isn't to say that we should just ignore the situations of those such as transgenders, but there have to be reasonable accommodations.  Mostly, we must stop harassing and making fun of those who are different from the majority.  Love would go a long way.

(September 15, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Lek Wrote:

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I'm not trying to speak on behalf of transgenders. From what you said I can get a feeling for how it would feel to be singled out.  When I was in school I was terribly uncoordinated.  When we were in the schoolyard picking up teams for a ball game I was always one of the last to be picked.  I was harassed for striking out or for dropping a fly ball.  I was different and just had to learn to deal with it.  I went on to distance running and excelled at that.  My experiences made me stronger.  I could have asked that they wouldn't allow baseball in the school, so I wouldn't be singled out, but that's not the way life is.  As a society, we can't smooth over everybody's discomforts.  We can only do our best to accommodate everybody in the best way possible.  

It really burns me up when I hear about a small business that goes under because they can't afford to make the changes necessary to meet government requirements for the handicapped.  This happens when they are perfectly willing to assist any handicapped person to get up stairs, etc.  We need to realize our limitations and try to finds ways to deal with situations ourselves.  Life isn't always 100% even.

This is anecdotal, but it illustrates my point.  Another guy and myself were in the gym locker room wondering why the owner didn't put mirrors above the sinks.  There is a full-length mirror against one wall and a mirror on an another wall that is upper body height.  We talked to the owner and he said that the only way he could put mirrors above the sinks is if he can put a mirror at the sink which could be used by a person in a wheelchair.  He just doesn't have the space or the means to do that.  He said he has one wheelchair bound person who uses the facility.  Because of the need to provide for him exactly as much as everybody else, men who want to shave must walk back and forth from the sink to the mirror every time they need to rinse the razor, as does the handicapped guy who must go back and forth.  So everybody must be inconvenienced, even though there is a simple fix for the problem for 99%. To top it off, I don't know the guy, but there's a good chance than he would be fine with the fix.

We on both sides of the issue must be concerned with the rights and feelings of the other side as well our own.  This isn't to say that we should just ignore the situations of those such as transgenders, but there has to be reasonable accommodations.  Mostly, we must stop harassing and making fun of those who are different from the majority.  Love would go a long way.

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Opposing NC's bathroom laws isn't going to cost businesses a penny or put a single one out of business. This isn't on the same level as handicapped or special needs people at all. You're acting like people will have to give up so much for this, when they won't at all. It's completely free and simple to accommodate. People simply have to stop being assholes, and that is all. Try again with another excuse.

It's easier to build the ramps, I think.

(September 15, 2016 at 4:01 pm)Jesster Wrote: Opposing NC's bathroom laws isn't going to cost businesses a penny or put a single one out of business. This isn't on the same level as handicapped or special needs people at all. You're acting like people will have to give up so much for this, when they won't at all. It's completely free and simple to accommodate. People simply have to stop being assholes, and that is all. Try again with another excuse.

I know, right?

Where do people who support such nonsense think that trans people have been taking care of their bio needs up until now?

(September 14, 2016 at 3:53 pm)Lek Wrote:  What's wrong with gender neutral bathrooms?  And yes, sex is and always has been about what sex organs one has.  

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

Agreed. Gender identity and biological sex are not the same thing.

And also, yes, gender and sex are not the same thing either. Just like genderlessness and non-fucking aren't.

Okay I've confused myself now.

TL;DR: Mathilda is 100% correct and I'm being both pedantic and trying (and almost certainly failing) to amuse.

(September 14, 2016 at 8:59 am)thesummerqueen Wrote:

(September 13, 2016 at 4:46 pm)Lek Wrote: NC is being boycotted for standing up for its citizens' rights?  Hang in there NC.

You're only half wrong.

It's being boycotted because one city stood up for its citizens' rights, and then our fucking Goblin King governor shat all over those protections and passed some legislation that, surprise surprise, no one else likes.

Lek is living on Airstrip One, where in order to stand up for people's rights the state removes those rights.

(September 15, 2016 at 12:41 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 14, 2016 at 9:09 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: What Lek actually means is: all the people HE considers to be "real" citizens.  

When you have nothing concrete to say this is the kind of stuff you turn to.  No.  I mean ALL citizens.

Fine then, I take it you'll be in favour of separate bathrooms, schools, beaches, shops, town &c for black people. After all, ghettoising minorities is, per your definition in this thread, only standing up for ALL people's rights.