I'm just curious, TLIG, what you thought of my Bible quotes that directly refute your assertions about "free will".

@DP - I wasn't aware of you quoting any scripture in this thread about free will, perhaps you're reffering to :

(May 24, 2011 at 9:17 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

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(May 23, 2011 at 9:37 pm)TLIG4EVER Wrote: Gamble well my friend because you only get one chance to choose holiness...to choose God.

Jesus doesn't want us to be converted. That's why he spoke in parables:
1-

Quote:Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Yahweh, your god, has made us non-believers:
2-

Quote:John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

In fact, Yahweh has sent us a "strong delusion" so that we'll have this silly belief that we live in a natural universe:
3-

Quote:2Thes 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We are chosen as objects of wrath to satisfy your sadistic god's glee on judgment day

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Numbering and bolding by me. To which I'll respond:

1- If you stop cherry picking and read the entire chapter, you'll easily see that it's a simple chastisement to his disciples for why they're not understanding his parable. You also conviently left out the first part of the verse "11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you." and completely changed the meaning of the passage

2-Unless you're a jew it doesn't apply to you, which again you cherry pick and apply to all.
It was simply about the Jews who believed, and professed their faith, the ones who believed but didn't profess, and those who still didn't get the message. It referenced this:
The Lord didn't give them a hard heart, it was because of their failure to see and hear.

3-This references the lawless one at end times that JEsus will overthrow. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (which is right before youre cherry picked verse). They refused and denied the truth, part of which is the nature of the universe around us. God doesn't want us to deny truth, in fact it's the opposite.

Hi DeistPaladin,
I've noted your quotes and I'll have a look at them in scripture later today.
Gotta get children to day-care and off to work.
Have a great day everyone!
TLIG4EVER

If there's anything more annoying than a fundie Christian, it's a fundie Christian who's deliriously happy about being Christian. TLIG is that kind of fundie.

Quote:THERE IS A HELL and you're heading straight for it.

Prove it.

Like I said, fire & brimstone threats don't work on people who don't believe in it.

Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It is always essential to examine the context of verses. The Catholic Church teaches that these verses are too be understood against their background in Mark3:6 and Mark3:22. These are verses that show that people do not accept Jesus' teachings despite all the good that he's doing before their eyes. It is against this background that the distinction in Jesus' method becomes clear of presenting the kingdom to the disbelieving crowd in one manner and to the disciples in another.
To the former it is presented in parables and the truth remains hidden; for the latter the parable is interpreted and the mystery is partially revealed because of their faith.
This is why Jesus proceeds to explain His parable of the seeds to them in Mark4:13-20

Ultimately it is always the choice of the person to remain blind to God's words. Sin blinds us from understanding the meaning of His words. Once we turn our wills towards God and seek Him, He slowly permits His light of wisdom to penetrate our mind. We must cooperate with God's grace to have any wisdom at all.


John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

What John does here in verse 36-41 is give a historical explanation of the disbelief of the Jewish people, not a psychological one. The Old Testament had to be fulfilled; the disbelief that met Isaiah's message was a foreshadowing of the disbelief that Jesus encountered. In verse 43 and John3:20 we see that there is no negation of freedom.

Again, it is always our sins that blind us from understanding God's words of wisdom. As said in John 3:20-21 "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

2Thes 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Same idea here, it's is the person's choice that causes them have God send them strong delusion.

It's all essentially the same message here DeistPaladin.
We are always the cause of our own blindness by the choices we make.

Blessings,
TLIG4EVER
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/1

(May 26, 2011 at 7:44 pm)TLIG4EVER Wrote: It is always essential to examine the context of verses. The Catholic Church teaches that these verses are too be understood against their background in Mark3:6 and Mark3:22.

It only took 8 words into her rebuttal to see my most favorite defense christians offer up for their Bible.

CONTEXT ......... the great defender of the great book of contradictions ... context.

This has got to be the millionth time I've heard it. "My priest, or my pastor, or my youth leader, told me what this means in context."


It's the blind leading the blind .... Not hardly... Its the blind leading the deaf leading the stupid leading the sheep!

Maybe Christians do overuse that, but that says nothing about it's valididty. Perhaps you hear it so much because you take verses out of context often? Regardless, nice dodge.

Throwing out heaps of bible quotes does nothing to support or strengthen your arguments.

Besides, all that gibberish pretty much said: Just assume god exists and that it's all true. My response to that is: Get stuffed!
Back up your claims or it will be dismissed/rejected. There will be no special treatments.

Anyone who runs to bible quotes, demonstrates their weak arguments and inability to debate with their own initiative.

Again, prove that hell is a real place and that I'm going to spend eternity there. Otherwise you're just wasting time here.

(May 27, 2011 at 5:09 am)tackattack Wrote: Maybe Christians do overuse that, but that says nothing about it's valididty. Perhaps you hear it so much because you take verses out of context often? Regardless, nice dodge.

dodge? No one presented me with a question as far as I'm aware, but I'll have a look see.