Religious movements -aren't- holding their ground, or gaining it.  They're locked in an ever accelerating death spiral to the very bottom of the pit of humanity...at present.  

As to the complaints levied.  Some people™ seem to want, from the atheist movement (whatever we define that to be) the same thing that the religious want from their own corners.  A hero.  A guru.  A Big Man.  A  Paragon of Party Virtue.  

As a born non-believer....I can't help but chalk some of that down to the residual effect of religious indocrination in the case of "atheist converts" or in the tone and narrative setting status of religious indocrination in the gp, globally, for these many thousands of years. Krauss et al are supposed to "act like x", to "be like x". They are compared, explicitly, to a dolt collecting bible salesman as though the metrics for the mens' respective positions were identical.

(September 30, 2016 at 5:49 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(September 29, 2016 at 10:57 pm)Macoleco Wrote: To be honest, if I have to thank religion for something, it is for giving me a motive to live, which is, ironically, destroy religion.

You would know that's impossible, if you knew what religion really is.

Forms rising and fall but the spirit of Man is ever propelled towards God.

(September 30, 2016 at 12:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: As a born non-believer....I can't help but chalk some of that down to the residual effect of religious indocrination in the case of "atheist converts" or in the tone and narrative setting status of religious indocrination in the gp, globally, for these many thousands of years.

I rather view it as part of our tribal nature. We're still chimps at heart. All of us, and the best reminder for me are some not so fond memories from primary school. The last one in the food chain got beaten up by the alpha. Fat, strong, stocky boy everyone feared. We all joined in the beating and I'm as ashamed of it now as I was even back then.

That's deeply rooted in our nature. We always tend to look for leaders. It's only that I don't define myself over my absence of belief that makes me resent this near adoration of the so called prominent atheists.

That's a portion of human nature literally deified by god belief.  He's always the biggest, baddest, strongest motherfucker on the block. Separating our cliquish and brutal natures and upbringing from our cliqueish and brutal religious beliefs and upbringing (and the context and narratiove that they've determined for society since antiquity) is an impossible task. The one -is- the other, only taken to the form of high art.

As to prominent atheists and their adoration. I'm a bad atheist, I guess, lol. With the exception of hitchens, I've never read any of their work. I think he was a good orator and author, but not a leader of any kind. I don't think we'd have been buddies, nor would I have expected him to return my phone calls.

(September 30, 2016 at 3:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's a portion of human nature literally deified by god belief.  He's always the biggest, baddest, strongest motherfucker on the block.  Separating our cliquish and brutal natures and upbringing  from our cliqueish and brutal religious beliefs and upbringing (and the context and narratiove that they've determined for society since antiquity) is an impossible task.  The one -is- the other, only taken to the form of high art.

Not always.

1 Kings 19:11-13King James Version (KJV)

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You have a talent for talking around a conversation, don't you? It's admirable, but pointless with me.

(September 30, 2016 at 3:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You have a talent for talking around a conversation, don't you?  It's admirable, but pointless with me.

Is there anything about stillness being a way to communicate with God in any other religion or tradition?

(September 30, 2016 at 3:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: As to prominent atheists and their adoration.  I'm a bad atheist, I guess, lol.  With the exception of hitchens, I've never read any of their work.  I think he was a good orator and author, but not a leader of any kind.  I don't think we'd have been buddies, nor would I have expected him to return my phone calls.

I've read atheist literature too. But for the fun of it. Mostly the works of Karlheinz Deschner, german atheist and vocal critic of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as good or bad atheists. Atheism is just the absence of belief. It doesn't include any kinds of values.

(September 30, 2016 at 3:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: As to prominent atheists and their adoration. I'm a bad atheist, I guess, lol. With the exception of hitchens, I've never read any of their work. I think he was a good orator and author, but not a leader of any kind. I don't think we'd have been buddies, nor would I have expected him to return my phone calls.

This is how I feel about it, although I think he and I could have sourly cut up over some scotch.

The only "atheist" leaders I give a fuck about are the kind who are more closely aligned with science and skepticism. Sagan. Tyson. Novella. Shermer. Etc.

It's not enough to be an atheist, and how many times can you sit there and jack off to the idea that "god is not real"? You have to find something positive (and by positive, I mean the opposite of 'null', not happy feelings necessarily) to fill the void. People are always proud of themselves for not believing in god, but lack basic abilities to think critically, have little to no basic understanding of human psychology or history, and often trade god-belief for other woo.

(September 30, 2016 at 3:42 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: The only "atheist" leaders I give a fuck about are the kind who are more closely aligned with science and skepticism. Sagan. Tyson. Novella. Shermer. Etc.

Most of them are closely aligned with science. That in itself doesn't mean I like their views on politics or social issues. Harris is a great scientist, but I don't like one word he's saying outside his field of expertise. I don't like what he obviously stands for.

When it comes to atheists, I like them if they display a sense of humour. In my case, they're preaching to the choir anyway. So I only read or listen to them if they entertain me. If I feel resentment towards the public figure on display, they can be as learned as the wish. They won't draw me in.