(June 2, 2011 at 5:22 am)FaithNoMore Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='141768' dateline='1306988892']
That is my question and you haven't answered it, God had and has a purpose for this country and in His own way guided it's rise, the purpose that God has and the actions man takes upon himself can and most often conflict with each other. I do not believe that God wanted the Indians treated the way they were and I myself find it to be a horrible thing. Yes I do believe many christians were involved in the terrible treatment of the Indians because they viewed them as inferior, this is not a reason for such action but never the less it took place and I'm sure not to God's approval. Greed does not know very many bounds with most people and thus the results of how America treated the Native Americans. God is not responsible for man's actions just as a parent is not responsible for the action of a child.

The answer is that I don't believe God had anything to do with it as I have no belief in God. You, however, made the assertion that God helped this country rise, but why would he do that all the while the natives were being slaughtered for this country to exist? If you want to make the claim that God was involved in the creating of this country, you have to explain why he was active in the building of a country whose foundation was the blood of the innocent. Why didn't God wipe his hands clean of the whole dirty mess? It's because you are American, and you believe God loves the same things you do. This allows you to avoid criticizing whether the foundation of this country actually fits into your God's ideals.

Then you claim God is not responsible for the action of ignorant men, but somehow he was responsible for the founding of this country, which was founded by the same ignorant men. You're simply trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Again I do not understand your thinking in this matter. God has a purpose for this country reguardless of man's inhumanity to man. God will judge these men someday for what they have done. Like I said before man's actions and God's plans often conflict, man often tries to out think the omniscient God they worship and this often leads to things being done in God's name that was never God's intention and in the end God gets blamed for the short comings of man. To sum this up, God's plans are His and are of a spiritual purpose and God will carry His plans through for His purpose reguardless of what man does. Very few men ever see God's plans coming about, most only see His plan after it has come to fruition. Man's greatest fault is hind site, God's never has to use such, He is omnipresent and can see the future and knows the good of His plans, ie. He can see the results before they happen. To answer your question on why God would not wash His hands of such a mess, His plans do not depend on man's actions, man's actions have never and will never dictate God's will for doing good.

(June 2, 2011 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote: God is not responsible for man's actions just as a parent is not responsible for the action of a child.

Aha, but an omniscient parent who knows full well that some of his children will go on to commit unspeakable acts of barbarity and knows this before these children are even born and still continues to allow their existence. What about a parent like that?

(June 2, 2011 at 9:49 am)Godschild Wrote: Again I do not understand your thinking in this matter. God has a purpose for this country reguardless of man's inhumanity to man. God will judge these men someday for what they have done. Like I said before man's actions and God's plans often conflict, man often tries to out think the omniscient God they worship and this often leads to things being done in God's name that was never God's intention and in the end God gets blamed for the short comings of man. To sum this up, God's plans are His and are of a spiritual purpose and God will carry His plans through for His purpose reguardless of what man does. Very few men ever see God's plans coming about, most only see His plan after it has come to fruition. Man's greatest fault is hind site, God's never has to use such, He is omnipresent and can see the future and knows the good of His plans, ie. He can see the results before they happen. To answer your question on why God would not wash His hands of such a mess, His plans do not depend on man's actions, man's actions have never and will never dictate God's will for doing good.

What I do not understand is why you think his plans do not depend on man's actions, yet you claim he was instrumental in the founding of the U.S. constitution, which was brought about by man's actions. If god truly had a plan for a country being built, he would be relying on the people who were building it. If he was not relying on the will of the people constructing the country, then the people involved would have lost their free will. This brings about the question as to why god would intervene for the creating of a constitution, but not in the slaughtering of millions. It seems, however, that since you have assumed that god is good, you are automatically assuming all acts of good are god's will, and evil acts are humanity's will.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that god either has some responsibility for the evil, or nothing to do with the good.

@Rev- That's about the only think I have a sense of humor on, myself

(June 2, 2011 at 11:50 am)Darwinian Wrote:

(June 2, 2011 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote: God is not responsible for man's actions just as a parent is not responsible for the action of a child.

Aha, but an omniscient parent who knows full well that some of his children will go on to commit unspeakable acts of barbarity and knows this before these children are even born and still continues to allow their existence. What about a parent like that?

An omniscient parent does not exist except for God, so there is no way to answer that question. The fact that God allows man to do barbaric thngs is called freewill, I know this is a point of contention on this forum but that's doesn't make freewill by God any less true.

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(June 2, 2011 at 1:04 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote:

(June 2, 2011 at 9:49 am)Godschild Wrote:

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Again I do not understand your thinking in this matter. God has a purpose for this country reguardless of man's inhumanity to man. God will judge these men someday for what they have done. Like I said before man's actions and God's plans often conflict, man often tries to out think the omniscient God they worship and this often leads to things being done in God's name that was never God's intention and in the end God gets blamed for the short comings of man. To sum this up, God's plans are His and are of a spiritual purpose and God will carry His plans through for His purpose reguardless of what man does. Very few men ever see God's plans coming about, most only see His plan after it has come to fruition. Man's greatest fault is hind site, God's never has to use such, He is omnipresent and can see the future and knows the good of His plans, ie. He can see the results before they happen. To answer your question on why God would not wash His hands of such a mess, His plans do not depend on man's actions, man's actions have never and will never dictate God's will for doing good.

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What I do not understand is why you think his plans do not depend on man's actions, yet you claim he was instrumental in the founding of the U.S. constitution, which was brought about by man's actions. If god truly had a plan for a country being built, he would be relying on the people who were building it. If he was not relying on the will of the people constructing the country, then the people involved would have lost their free will. This brings about the question as to why god would intervene for the creating of a constitution, but not in the slaughtering of millions. It seems, however, that since you have assumed that god is good, you are automatically assuming all acts of good are god's will, and evil acts are humanity's will.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that god either has some responsibility for the evil, or nothing to do with the good.

Yes you are right that man's action brought us the constitution, God however called certain men to be a part of this process and their christian beliefs were influential in the final document. God's will can not be determined by man because no man can influence God. God being omniscient does not need the limited sight of man to decided what He should do. That would be like a dog trying to teach it's owner how to teach the dog tricks when the dog has no idea what is going on in the first place.
Before you ask how these men knew God had called them to this task they probably did not, I can not be sure of that though since I was not there, God prepared these men for this role in their lives and this could have started with their parents or others in their lives. The reason I say this, because this is the way God has worked in my life and the lives of many christians that I personally know.

(June 3, 2011 at 1:24 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes you are right that man's action brought us the constitution, God however called certain men to be a part of this process and their christian beliefs were influential in the final document. God's will can not be determined by man because no man can influence God. God being omniscient does not need the limited sight of man to decided what He should do. That would be like a dog trying to teach it's owner how to teach the dog tricks when the dog has no idea what is going on in the first place.

Your analogy proves my point as the owner then becomes dependent upon the dog to complete the task. No matter how well you teach a dog to do something, you are then relying on the dog to do what you have taught it, just as God would have had to rely on humans.

Godschild Wrote:Before you ask how these men knew God had called them to this task they probably did not, I can not be sure of that though since I was not there, God prepared these men for this role in their lives and this could have started with their parents or others in their lives.

How do you claim to know that God prepared these men for anything? How do you know that God wasn't absent and everything that happened was because of the will of these men? You say that God had nothing to do with the genocide to colonize this country, because it was the will of men. Then you say that the men were prepared by God in creating the constitution. Once again, you are giving responsibility of the good to God, while dismissing the bad as the will of men. Why is it that you believe that humans are capable of committing such acts of violence on their own, yet anything good must have been guided by God?

Godschild Wrote:The reason I say this, because this is the way God has worked in my life and the lives of many christians that I personally know.

That is not the way your life has worked, that is just the way you have perceived your life to work. Everyone is going to have experiences in their life that seem to be guided by fate, or God if you will, but this is just circumstance. We humans perceive structure in randomness, because it is our nature to organize the chaos, and to try and put meaning behind things that are random occurrences.

(June 2, 2011 at 11:50 am)Darwinian Wrote:

(June 2, 2011 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote: God is not responsible for man's actions just as a parent is not responsible for the action of a child.

Aha, but an omniscient parent who knows full well that some of his children will go on to commit unspeakable acts of barbarity and knows this before these children are even born and still continues to allow their existence. What about a parent like that?

And an omnipresent god would be able to stop or influence any action by anyone anywhere. So he allows evil to exist and doesn't nothing. It's almost like he wasn't there.

(June 3, 2011 at 7:47 am)FaithNoMore Wrote:

(June 3, 2011 at 1:24 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes you are right that man's action brought us the constitution, God however called certain men to be a part of this process and their christian beliefs were influential in the final document. God's will can not be determined by man because no man can influence God. God being omniscient does not need the limited sight of man to decided what He should do. That would be like a dog trying to teach it's owner how to teach the dog tricks when the dog has no idea what is going on in the first place.

FNM Wrote:Your analogy proves my point as the owner then becomes dependent upon the dog to complete the task. No matter how well you teach a dog to do something, you are then relying on the dog to do what you have taught it, just as God would have had to rely on humans.

Your right man does need the dog to complete the task as far as the trick goes when the dog is involved, man however can complete the task himself if need be. God never needs a man to complete His will, He can look down through history and see who He desires to put in place to work within His will, or if He desires He can do it Himself, God however has chosen to work through man to complete His will.

Godschild Wrote:Before you ask how these men knew God had called them to this task they probably did not, I can not be sure of that though since I was not there, God prepared these men for this role in their lives and this could have started with their parents or others in their lives.

FNM Wrote:How do you claim to know that God prepared these men for anything? How do you know that God wasn't absent and everything that happened was because of the will of these men? You say that God had nothing to do with the genocide to colonize this country, because it was the will of men. Then you say that the men were prepared by God in creating the constitution. Once again, you are giving responsibility of the good to God, while dismissing the bad as the will of men. Why is it that you believe that humans are capable of committing such acts of violence on their own, yet anything good must have been guided by God?

Yes I'm saying God had nothing to do with the atrocities committed against the Indians. Man is capable of great inhumanities against man, you can believe no other way since you do not believe in God so I do not need to explain any further. God is good and can not commit evil as that would be sinful and God can not sin. I'm not saying that man does not do good man is capable of do good.

Godschild Wrote:The reason I say this, because this is the way God has worked in my life and the lives of many christians that I personally know.

FNM Wrote:That is not the way your life has worked, that is just the way you have perceived your life to work. Everyone is going to have experiences in their life that seem to be guided by fate, or God if you will, but this is just circumstance. We humans perceive structure in randomness, because it is our nature to organize the chaos, and to try and put meaning behind things that are random occurrences.

You can not say that as a truth because you can not disprove God, I do not have to prove there is a God because I know for myself that He is real and working in my life and that is all that is required on my part. It's not my fault you do not believe, you have chosen that for yourself, it's your responsibility as to how you chose to believe or not believe and that choice has no real bearing on me.

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(June 3, 2011 at 8:46 am)Gawdzilla Wrote:

(June 2, 2011 at 11:50 am)Darwinian Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='141768' dateline='1306988892']
God is not responsible for man's actions just as a parent is not responsible for the action of a child.

Aha, but an omniscient parent who knows full well that some of his children will go on to commit unspeakable acts of barbarity and knows this before these children are even born and still continues to allow their existence. What about a parent like that?

Gawdzilla Wrote:And an omnipresent god would be able to stop or influence any action by anyone anywhere. So he allows evil to exist and doesn't nothing. It's almost like he wasn't there.

Yes God could do that but that's not the way He has chosen to work in this world, how can you say that He does nothing, man might have destroyed himself by now if God had allowed all evil to prevail.

Godchild Wrote:You can not say that as a truth because you can not disprove God, I do not have to prove there is a God because I know for myself that He is real and working in my life and that is all that is required on my part. It's not my fault you do not believe, you have chosen that for yourself, it's your responsibility as to how you chose to believe or not believe and that choice has no real bearing on me.

(bold mine)
You cannot prove it either! Derpty derp der!

Seriously, you must really like Pascal's wager.

(June 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes God could do that but that's not the way He has chosen to work in this world, how can you say that He does nothing, man might have destroyed himself by now if God had allowed all evil to prevail.

Man might yet destroy himself if he allows the evil of faith in and cults of any dictatorial, capricious, omnipotent god to resurge and pervail.