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June 3, 2011 at 2:51 pm (This post was last modified: June 3, 2011 at 6:44 pm by Faith No More.)
(June 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your right man does need the dog to complete the task as far as the trick goes when the dog is involved, man however can complete the task himself if need be. God never needs a man to complete His will, He can look down through history and see who He desires to put in place to work within His will, or if He desires He can do it Himself, God however has chosen to work through man to complete His will.
Regardless of whether God chooses to, or needs to, when using man, he therefore relies on man.
Godschild Wrote:Yes I'm saying God had nothing to do with the atrocities committed against the Indians. Man is capable of great inhumanities against man, you can believe no other way since you do not believe in God so I do not need to explain any further. God is good and can not commit evil as that would be sinful and God can not sin. I'm not saying that man does not do good man is capable of do good.
I agree that man is capable of great atrocities. My point, however, was why would God guide man to create a government, but not give them the insight not to slaughter a group of people. Having Native American roots, I resent the fact that God took the time to help form a country for white people, but sat by idly while my ancestors were rounded up and murdered.
Godschild Wrote:You can not say that as a truth because you can not disprove God, I do not have to prove there is a God because I know for myself that He is real and working in my life and that is all that is required on my part. It's not my fault you do not believe, you have chosen that for yourself, it's your responsibility as to how you chose to believe or not believe and that choice has no real bearing on me.
Actually, you made the claim that God guided the forming of the U.S., which requires you to present evidence for God's existsence, and that he was involved in the forming of this country. Otherwise you're making extraordinary claims and backing them up with, "just trust me, I can tell." And it's a common misconception that atheists choose not to believe in God. We simply weigh all the evidence and come to a conclusion based on this evidence. There is no choice in the matter in the same way I have no choice when believing in gravity.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(June 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your right man does need the dog to complete the task as far as the trick goes when the dog is involved, man however can complete the task himself if need be. God never needs a man to complete His will, He can look down through history and see who He desires to put in place to work within His will, or if He desires He can do it Himself, God however has chosen to work through man to complete His will.
Regardless of whether God chooses to, or needs to, when using man, he therefore relies on man.
Godschild Wrote:Yes I'm saying God had nothing to do with the atrocities committed against the Indians. Man is capable of great inhumanities against man, you can believe no other way since you do not believe in God so I do not need to explain any further. God is good and can not commit evil as that would be sinful and God can not sin. I'm not saying that man does not do good man is capable of do good.
I agree that man is capable of great atrocities. My point, however, was why would God guide man to create a government, but not give them the insight not to slaughter a group of people. Having Native American roots, I resent the fact that God took the time to help form a country for white people, but sat by idly while my ancestors were rounded up and murdered.
Godschild Wrote:You can not say that as a truth because you can not disprove God, I do not have to prove there is a God because I know for myself that He is real and working in my life and that is all that is required on my part. It's not my fault you do not believe, you have chosen that for yourself, it's your responsibility as to how you chose to believe or not believe and that choice has no real bearing on me.
Actually, you made the claim that God guided the forming of the U.S., which requires you to present evidence for God's existsence, and that he was involved in the forming of this country. Otherwise your making extraordinary claims and backing them up with, "just trust me, I can tell." And it's a common misconception that atheists choose not to believe in God. We simply weigh all the evidence and come to a conclusion based on this evidence. There is no choice in the matter in the same way I have no choice when believing in gravity.
Just out of curiosity, what evidence would you accept demonstrating God guided the formation of the US?
(June 3, 2011 at 6:10 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Just out of curiosity, what evidence would you accept demonstrating God guided the formation of the US?
I guess I really can't answer that as I would have to evaluate any evidence presented on an individual basis. Something along the lines of showing that humans couldn't have accomplished such a task simply on their own might be sufficient. As the human race has the capacity for great acts of violence and great acts of peace and empathy, saying that God must have had a hand in forming the U.S. simply because we are generally predisposed to allow freedom is denying the fact that humans are fully capable of that on their own.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Quote:yet you claim he was instrumental in the founding of the U.S. constitution
Because he read it in a book written by some other fundie jerkoff. If you've noticed, there is always some fundie jerkoff who tells the other jerkoffs exactly what they want to hear. It's a real cottage industry.
Just remember, G-C. Your xtian asshole buddies gave us the "Divine Right of Kings."
Enlightenment Deists and Atheists gave us the "Rights of Man."
(June 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your right man does need the dog to complete the task as far as the trick goes when the dog is involved, man however can complete the task himself if need be. God never needs a man to complete His will, He can look down through history and see who He desires to put in place to work within His will, or if He desires He can do it Himself, God however has chosen to work through man to complete His will.
Regardless of whether God chooses to, or needs to, when using man, he therefore relies on man.
Godschild Wrote:Yes I'm saying God had nothing to do with the atrocities committed against the Indians. Man is capable of great inhumanities against man, you can believe no other way since you do not believe in God so I do not need to explain any further. God is good and can not commit evil as that would be sinful and God can not sin. I'm not saying that man does not do good man is capable of do good.
FNM Wrote:I agree that man is capable of great atrocities. My point, however, was why would God guide man to create a government, but not give them the insight not to slaughter a group of people. Having Native American roots, I resent the fact that God took the time to help form a country for white people, but sat by idly while my ancestors were rounded up and murdered.
God gave man the insight not to slaughter people of any race, they just ignor the teachings of Christ when they do such terrible things. Let me be clear about what I'm saying here, yes there were christians involved in the terrible treatment of Indians but I do not believe that christians were the majority. People with that kind of hate for another race have little in the way of christian values, being basicly a white man (though I do have some Cherokee blood from my great grandmother) I can not completely understand what you feel and am sorry that such acts were committed by the whites. My ancestors were still in Ireland when most of fighting with the Indians was going on. God did not form a country just for white people, they just happen to be the majority at the time, God wanted a christian nation no matter what color ones skin. God does not even look at skin color or any other physical appearance those things are not important to Him, God looks inside a person and judges his heart ie. thoughts. The reason God used the white man to bring about this nation is they were the majority of christians and were basicly the ones who would spread the gospel of Jesus. There is no way to undo the past, I wish there was, I believe that being able to learn from the Indian how to cherish the land would of found this country in a better situation, instead we know have a land that is being worn away by greed. You know when we get right down to it greed is what brought about the atrocities against the Indians and God has said that greed is the root to all evil. It's getting very late will try to respond to the last part tomorrow.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(June 4, 2011 at 3:04 am)Godschild Wrote: God gave man the insight not to slaughter people of any race, they just ignor the teachings of Christ when they do such terrible things. Let me be clear about what I'm saying here, yes there were christians involved in the terrible treatment of Indians but I do not believe that christians were the majority.
But there in lies the problem as the people responsible for building this country were mostly the same ones responsible for the slaughter. So to claim that the founders were Christians being guided by god, is to claim the slaughter was by perpetrated by Christians. I'm not saying they were following Christian doctrine when they were doing it, but either Christians were responsible for the atrocities or they were not responsible for the founding of the country.
Godschild Wrote:People with that kind of hate for another race have little in the way of christian values, being basicly a white man (though I do have some Cherokee blood from my great grandmother) I can not completely understand what you feel and am sorry that such acts were committed by the whites. My ancestors were still in Ireland when most of fighting with the Indians was going on.
Actually, I am mostly white myself, but my mother is 1/4 Choctaw. So this leaves me as only 1/8 Native American, which isn't a whole lot, but it's still enough to register as an official member of the Choctaw tribe. I don't claim to speak for Native Americans as a whole as some of my ancestors were surely killing my other ancestors, but I've always felt a sickening in my heart for what the settlers did to the natives. Since I found out about my heritage though, it has become more personal.
Godschild Wrote:God did not form a country just for white people, they just happen to be the majority at the time, God wanted a christian nation no matter what color ones skin. God does not even look at skin color or any other physical appearance those things are not important to Him, God looks inside a person and judges his heart ie. thoughts. The reason God used the white man to bring about this nation is they were the majority of christians and were basicly the ones who would spread the gospel of Jesus. There is no way to undo the past, I wish there was, I believe that being able to learn from the Indian how to cherish the land would of found this country in a better situation, instead we know have a land that is being worn away by greed. You know when we get right down to it greed is what brought about the atrocities against the Indians and God has said that greed is the root to all evil. It's getting very late will try to respond to the last part tomorrow.
My point is that if God truly wanted a Christian nation, why didn't he guide it to have a pure foundation? Surely God would not want his ideal nation built on the blood of the innocent, correct?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(June 4, 2011 at 3:04 am)Godschild Wrote: God gave man the insight not to slaughter people of any race, they just ignor the teachings of Christ when they do such terrible things.
What about all the accounts of Israelites slaughtering entire races in the Old Testament down to the last man, woman, child, and even livestock? According to the OT, God commanded them to do that.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
June 4, 2011 at 10:32 am (This post was last modified: June 4, 2011 at 10:33 am by Darth.)
(June 4, 2011 at 10:27 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote:
(June 4, 2011 at 3:04 am)Godschild Wrote: God gave man the insight not to slaughter people of any race, they just ignor the teachings of Christ when they do such terrible things.
What about all the accounts of Israelites slaughtering entire races in the Old Testament down to the last man, woman, child, and even livestock? According to the OT, God commanded them to do that.
Didn't they get to keep the female children for themselves?
(June 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your right man does need the dog to complete the task as far as the trick goes when the dog is involved, man however can complete the task himself if need be. God never needs a man to complete His will, He can look down through history and see who He desires to put in place to work within His will, or if He desires He can do it Himself, God however has chosen to work through man to complete His will.
Regardless of whether God chooses to, or needs to, when using man, he therefore relies on man.
Godschild Wrote:Yes I'm saying God had nothing to do with the atrocities committed against the Indians. Man is capable of great inhumanities against man, you can believe no other way since you do not believe in God so I do not need to explain any further. God is good and can not commit evil as that would be sinful and God can not sin. I'm not saying that man does not do good man is capable of do good.
I agree that man is capable of great atrocities. My point, however, was why would God guide man to create a government, but not give them the insight not to slaughter a group of people. Having Native American roots, I resent the fact that God took the time to help form a country for white people, but sat by idly while my ancestors were rounded up and murdered.
Godschild Wrote:You can not say that as a truth because you can not disprove God, I do not have to prove there is a God because I know for myself that He is real and working in my life and that is all that is required on my part. It's not my fault you do not believe, you have chosen that for yourself, it's your responsibility as to how you chose to believe or not believe and that choice has no real bearing on me.
Actually, you made the claim that God guided the forming of the U.S., which requires you to present evidence for God's existsence, and that he was involved in the forming of this country. Otherwise your making extraordinary claims and backing them up with, "just trust me, I can tell." And it's a common misconception that atheists choose not to believe in God. We simply weigh all the evidence and come to a conclusion based on this evidence. There is no choice in the matter in the same way I have no choice when believing in gravity.
Just out of curiosity, what evidence would you accept demonstrating God guided the formation of the US?
If it ended up full of fundamentalist christian retards.....
........wait......
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
(June 3, 2011 at 6:10 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Just out of curiosity, what evidence would you accept demonstrating God guided the formation of the US?
I guess I really can't answer that as I would have to evaluate any evidence presented on an individual basis. Something along the lines of showing that humans couldn't have accomplished such a task simply on their own might be sufficient. As the human race has the capacity for great acts of violence and great acts of peace and empathy, saying that God must have had a hand in forming the U.S. simply because we are generally predisposed to allow freedom is denying the fact that humans are fully capable of that on their own.
Why are you wasting your time with these trolls FnM? If you dont feed them, they wont come back.
The humane way to deal with them is to put them on ignore and if enough members do it they will leave and crawl back under their respective bridges
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