Quote: So what are we saying happened, here?

Mass delusion.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This site actually addresses the fact that out of the thousands who claimed to have seen the sun move in zig zags, there were some who actually didn't see anything at all... and it actually only serves to further support the notion that it was a miracle and not some sort of natural sun effect:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/debunkin...-skeptics/

Why jump unhesitantly to the conclusion it must be a miracle? We have good psychological explanations for why stuff like this happens, whether it's to do with selective attention, misinterpretation, biases, illusions, mass hysteria, etc.

(November 1, 2016 at 7:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There's a lot of info out there about it if anyone is interested in looking into it.

Here's a website that has several proposed natural explanations for what happened, and why none of them really add up:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/debunkin...-skeptics/

As for pictures, there are pictures of the crowds' reaction as well as a couple pictures of the sun:

https://www.google.com/search?q=miracle+...=1#imgrc=_

Though there's nothing extraordinary looking about the sun in the picture, since it's just a picture and not a video that would have shown it moving.

You're using a christian's words to confirm your belief that is related to your religion? Mind looking for natural explanations from a good source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of..._the_event

"Auguste Meessen, following the work done before him by the Belgian skeptic Marc Hallet,[21] has stated sun miracles cannot be taken at face value and that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the color changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[22] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where many people within a crowd of over 10,000 testified to witnessing similar observations as at Fátima"

Maybe the people who didn't see anything at all weren't dumb enough to stare into the sun, lol.

(November 1, 2016 at 8:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Stimbo Wrote: You think thousands of people, even if that figure is accurate, reporting having seen the Sun literally flying around off its axis with no physical effects is more convincing than literally millions of people on the rest of the planet not seeing anything at all?

my bold

They weren't supposed to. That's why the kids were told to have people come to that spot.

Yeah, and they said that the miracle would occur at noon but it was not until 1:30, ninety minutes after its supposed "due time":

Quote:"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

Note what Dr. José Maria, the most often-cited witness, had to say:  1) It had been cloudy and raining, and then, around 1:30 PM, the Sun emerged behind the clouds, which means that the atmosphere was in a state of flux, perfect for all sorts of atmospheric phenomenon, and 2)  José Maria also claimed that there was a "column of smoke", which no one else had claimed, which attests to his state of mind.

It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/sixth-appari...r-lady.asp

(November 1, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This site actually addresses the fact that out of the thousands who claimed to have seen the sun move in zig zags, there were some who actually didn't see anything at all... and it actually only serves to further support the notion that it was a miracle and not some sort of natural sun effect:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/debunkin...-skeptics/

The fact that there were some who did not see the so-called miracle is proof that there were individuals who were in a proper state of mind and not given to hysteria.  If the so-called "miracle" lasted 10 minutes, as you claim, how could anyone possibly not see it?

(November 1, 2016 at 9:15 pm)RozKek Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of..._the_event

"Auguste Meessen, following the work done before him by the Belgian skeptic Marc Hallet,[21] has stated sun miracles cannot be taken at face value and that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the color changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[22] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where many people within a crowd of over 10,000 testified to witnessing similar observations as at Fátima"

Maybe the people who didn't see anything at all weren't dumb enough to stare into the sun, lol.

And Meessen's hypothesis is supported by the fact that it had been cloudy and raining, and it was only after the Sun emerged from the cloud deck, along with Lucia's screams that people finally "saw" something.  And, as for the so-called distant witnesses, their accounts were only a handful (likely, due to "social suggestion") and some communities that were close-by saw absolutely nothing.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

Which is frighteningly easy to induce in a group of people prone to superstitious thinking. Again, people from my village at the time "miracles" were happening would claim they saw such things as apparitions of Jesus and Mary, faith healings, icons dripping oil, cross of Jesus shaking, and so on.

For the record, the cross of Jesus was indeed shaking (as me and my friends at the time clearly saw it), but according to some people who went to the back of the room at the church, it was some idiot banging the wall from behind causing the cross attached to the wall from the other side to shake. It didn't stop gullible people from kneeling down before it and praying, though. And insisting to others that it was a miracle, of course.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 8:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: my bold

They weren't supposed to. That's why the kids were told to have people come to that spot.

Yeah, and they said that the miracle would occur at noon but it was not until 1:30, ninety minutes after its supposed "due time":

Quote:"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

Note what Dr. José Maria, the most often-cited witness, had to say:  1) It had been cloudy and raining, and then, around 1:30 PM, the Sun emerged behind the clouds, which means that the atmosphere was in a state of flux, perfect for all sorts of atmospheric phenomenon, and 2)  José Maria also claimed that there was a "column of smoke", which no one else had claimed, which attests to his state of mind.

It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/sixth-appari...r-lady.asp

This has been pointed out before. 1:30 was the official time of the country, but she was going by solar noon time.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:25 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

Which is frighteningly easy to induce in a group of people prone to superstitious thinking. Again, people from my village at the time "miracles" were happening would claim they saw such things as apparitions of Jesus and Mary, faith healings, icons dripping oil, cross of Jesus shaking, and so on.

For the record, the cross of Jesus was indeed shaking (as me and my friends at the time clearly saw it), but according to some people who went to the back of the room at the church, it was some idiot banging the wall from behind causing the cross attached to the wall from the other side to shake. It didn't stop gullible people from kneeling down before it and praying, though. And insisting to others that it was a miracle, of course.

Here's a great article on Lucia's psychology:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/real_secrets_of_fatima

And, Francisco:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinta_an...pparitions

who apparently did not hear the angel or Mary:

Quote:It has always been a point of interest that Francisco never heard the angel or Our Blessed Mother speak but he saw them. One time he said to Lucia: "You spoke to the angel; what did he say?" His question surprised Lucia. "Didn't you hear the angel speak then?" she asked. "No, I saw that he spoke to you. I heard what you said but I didn't hear what he said."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/FMARTO.htm