(November 1, 2016 at 9:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Yeah, and they said that the miracle would occur at noon but it was not until 1:30, ninety minutes after its supposed "due time":


http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

Note what Dr. José Maria, the most often-cited witness, had to say:  1) It had been cloudy and raining, and then, around 1:30 PM, the Sun emerged behind the clouds, which means that the atmosphere was in a state of flux, perfect for all sorts of atmospheric phenomenon, and 2)  José Maria also claimed that there was a "column of smoke", which no one else had claimed, which attests to his state of mind.

It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/sixth-appari...r-lady.asp

This has been pointed out before. 1:30 was the official time of the country, but she was going by solar noon time.

lol, yeah, that must be it.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Yeah, and they said that the miracle would occur at noon but it was not until 1:30, ninety minutes after its supposed "due time":


http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

Note what Dr. José Maria, the most often-cited witness, had to say:  1) It had been cloudy and raining, and then, around 1:30 PM, the Sun emerged behind the clouds, which means that the atmosphere was in a state of flux, perfect for all sorts of atmospheric phenomenon, and 2)  José Maria also claimed that there was a "column of smoke", which no one else had claimed, which attests to his state of mind.

It was Lucia herself, upon noticing the Sun emerging, who screamed, "Look at the sun!"  That's what got the crowd's attention, and like, provoked hysteria and panic among them:

https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/sixth-appari...r-lady.asp

This has been pointed out before. 1:30 was the official time of the country, but she was going by solar noon time.

No, it was still past solar noon, by 20 minutes:

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/

Just enter the following for coordinates: 39.6172, -8.6521 and the date & time.

The fact that thousands of people congregated there in the first place, just on the say so of a few kids, says a lot about their state of mind anyway; it suggests that most of them were 'the faithful' who went there already believing in miracles... whether they believed the kids or not about their specific claims... and expecting or hoping to see a miracle... and they'd be the ones that did indeed perceive a miracle.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:09 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This site actually addresses the fact that out of the thousands who claimed to have seen the sun move in zig zags, there were some who actually didn't see anything at all... and it actually only serves to further support the notion that it was a miracle and not some sort of natural sun effect:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/debunkin...-skeptics/

Why jump unhesitantly to the conclusion it must be a miracle? We have good psychological explanations for why stuff like this happens, whether it's to do with selective attention, misinterpretation, biases, illusions, mass hysteria, etc.

I think a mass of thousands of people (including skeptics) having the same hallucination at the same time is just too much of a coincidence to make much logical sense imho.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:09 pm)Irrational Wrote: Why jump unhesitantly to the conclusion it must be a miracle? We have good psychological explanations for why stuff like this happens, whether it's to do with selective attention, misinterpretation, biases, illusions, mass hysteria, etc.

I think a mass of thousands of people (including skeptics) having the same hallucination at the same time is just too much of a coincidence to make much logical sense imho.

You forget (over and over) that some individuals denied that anything supernatural was happening at all!  Some also claimed that the ground, which was soaked from all the rain, also became miraculously dry, as did their clothes.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:09 pm)Irrational Wrote: Why jump unhesitantly to the conclusion it must be a miracle? We have good psychological explanations for why stuff like this happens, whether it's to do with selective attention, misinterpretation, biases, illusions, mass hysteria, etc.

I think a mass of thousands of people (including skeptics) having the same hallucination at the same time is just too much of a coincidence to make much logical sense imho.

It's no different than thousands of people sharing the same mass delusion at say a Benny Hinn meeting... carpet time and giggling. To you that might be a miracle but to me that's just mass hypnosis and the power of suggestion.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:46 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think a mass of thousands of people (including skeptics) having the same hallucination at the same time is just too much of a coincidence to make much logical sense imho.

It's no different than thousands of people sharing the same mass delusion at say a Benny Hinn meeting... carpet time and giggling. To you that might be a miracle but to me that's just mass hypnosis and the power of suggestion.

Lots of reports of mass hysteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria

I just love the first one!!

(November 1, 2016 at 9:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:09 pm)Irrational Wrote: Why jump unhesitantly to the conclusion it must be a miracle? We have good psychological explanations for why stuff like this happens, whether it's to do with selective attention, misinterpretation, biases, illusions, mass hysteria, etc.

I think a mass of thousands of people (including skeptics) having the same hallucination at the same time is just too much of a coincidence to make much logical sense imho.

Aside from what the others have already said, I do want to point out that a coincidence is not one that is impossible by definition. They are always happening actually. In fact, the "remarkability" of certain coincidences are more products of perception. It is you, a rational being, who decides that they are remarkable.

(November 1, 2016 at 9:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 9:46 pm)Emjay Wrote: It's no different than thousands of people sharing the same mass delusion at say a Benny Hinn meeting... carpet time and giggling. To you that might be a miracle but to me that's just mass hypnosis and the power of suggestion.

Lots of reports of mass hysteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria

I just love the first one!!

hehe... I think it deserves quoting directly:

Quote:Cat nuns (France, Middle Ages)

A convent of nuns began to meow like cats and others followed until all would meow together at a certain time for several hours together. This continued until the surrounding village called soldiers to threaten the nuns to stop their singing.[7]

Well... they had to do something before telly was invented

Anyhoo, night folks