(November 14, 2016 at 11:30 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 14, 2016 at 8:39 am)Edward John Wrote: If there is a creator, so what?


So what, SO WHAT! Are you an idiot?  If God exists then you BETTER start doing exactly what he wants or Your going down, to HELL.

"If"?

Someone knows their Pelopennesian wars history.

(November 14, 2016 at 1:23 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Well, let's start with a real basic and simple reason.

If it's true that god exists, then you should care about it in the same way you care about anything else you hold to be true.

Caring about truth (or at least as close as we may come to truth) seems to be something you do a lot. Why not start there?

The thing is, I don't have one level of 'care' for the things I hold to be true. And the human brain is so weird that I don't think we consistently apply a specific amount of 'care' to things we know to be true. The reason why we care a lot/little for something might be buried deep in our subconscious so that we have no clue why a seemingly minor thing affects us far more deeply than an event that should be much more meaningful.

I know this, based on my experiences as both a believer and a non-believer: if I discover that God is real, the effect on my life would likely be negligible unless it's a completely different God than the ones we've had pitched to us as the real one(s). The Gods that theists here describe is the one that lives in the blind spots of our minds and only survives on a steady diet of cognitive biases and complicated logical fallacies. If there really is a God and it decides to inform me that it is real, it would need to provide more than just that fact to make me feel anything aside from morbid curiosity.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote: But if we go down the road of what if everything your lot believes is a exactly right what would we do?  Let's just say we'd cross that river when we get to it.  It's no where in sight now.  Whether one would comply with any 'commandments' when one is free to do otherwise is still an open question.

None of "their lot" believe that everything their lot has to say about god is true either...and even though they're halfway there...they still don't seem to be able to manage two shits when the question becomes "what if what the other guys says is true". Nor do they seem to be able to follow their own commandments from their own version of god, let alone anyone else's.

-so they should be familiar with completely and utterly not giving a shit before they ever ask an atheist the question "do you care about truth?" as though it was even remotely a discussion of truth in the first place.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:07 pm)robvalue Wrote: Sure, I'm interested in knowing what is true. So let's say you convince me that it's true that "god" exists, whatever that means. What difference should this make to me? [1] I have scientific curiosity about any previously unknown phenomenon, sure. People generally seem to think it's rather more important than that, but have trouble saying why. [2]

1) Well not much yet. If god is what it is, then your existence is immediately dependent on its act-of-being. Just "being" you is an act which requires a participation in god's act-of-being (obviously it does not require an acknowledged participation). Which is another way of saying the most fundamental thing about you is a relation between your existence and god's.

2) Sure, and I think it's more important than that, but something tells me a "baby-steps" approach would be our best shot of shedding light on any of this. Rhythm mentioned miscommunication, and I think that is an important factor to consider.

(November 14, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is it entirely beyond the pale that people who don't believe what you believe might hear the things you say differently than you do.  That some things you think are innocent assumptions or usages would be, correctly and identifiably, bullshit digs to them? 

I do say so.

Now, imo, you seem like the kind of guy who wants to set a different tone, have a different type of conversation.  You're going to have to be aware of things like this to accomplish that.

Will it work both ways?

If we believed everything in the Bible was true then it would mean we believed that all the horribly immoral statements were truly right. We'd accept its claimed absolute morality as true too.

So the question becomes a completely meaningless non-question. The question basically becomes "If you believed that it was truly right to stone your children to death for disobeying you then would you believe it was truly right to stone your children to death for disobeying you?"

... just a pointless question. The point is even if God did exist the claims such a God was making would not and could not be true because moral ontology is impossible.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Yeah I guess I'd care to know it .. as you say .. at least in the sense of wanting to know truly how things stand.  

I think what everyone is reacting to is the idea that we'd want to behave in ways prescribed by the bible if it were known a creator god were real. [1] You haven't specified what if any link there might be between a creator God's existence and the degree to which any of the Christian mythology being its accurate reflection. [2] 

But if we go down the road of what if everything your lot believes is a exactly right what would we do?  Let's just say we'd cross that river when we get to it.  It's no where in sight now.  Whether one would comply with any 'commandments' when one is free to do otherwise is still an open question. [3]

1) Ya I get that. I don't think we are anywhere close to making mutual sense out of those sorts of claims.

2) That is correct. I have yet to do this. The question as posed, however, leaves room for a lot of "playing along" on the part of the atheist. "Why should I care?" is basically asking, "Supposing what you say about god is true, what difference would it make for me?" Edward John went straight for the eternal jugular, and told you that the difference is that you go to hell. I'm opting for a different approach.

3) Oh ya you got it. See #2

I'm more than happy to play, Ignorant.

So, I'd care in the sense of "I'm glad I know the truth and know that the universe indeed does contain a deity".

So my question now is... why should I care beyond that? Because I think that's the question that is begged.

(November 14, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Tonus Wrote: The thing is, I don't have one level of 'care' for the things I hold to be true.  And the human brain is so weird that I don't think we consistently apply a specific amount of 'care' to things we know to be true.  The reason why we care a lot/little for something might be buried deep in our subconscious so that we have no clue why a seemingly minor thing affects us far more deeply than an event that should be much more meaningful.

I know this, based on my experiences as both a believer and a non-believer: if I discover that God is real, the effect on my life would likely be negligible unless it's a completely different God than the ones we've had pitched to us as the real one(s). [1] The Gods that theists here describe is the one that lives in the blind spots of our minds and only survives on a steady diet of cognitive biases and complicated logical fallacies. [2] If there really is a God and it decides to inform me that it is real, it would need to provide more than just that fact to make me feel anything aside from morbid curiosity. [3]

1) This is the one possibility to which I hope you remain open. I won't pretend to be the one who will provide this possibility for you, but it is my hope. I don't mean to imply I have a different god than any other Christian, but I try to form a fuller picture of the Christian god every day. Being able to communicate that picture... not so easy.

2) Fair assessment.

3) Fair enough.

(November 14, 2016 at 4:21 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I'm more than happy to play, Ignorant.

So, I'd care in the sense of "I'm glad I know the truth and know that the universe indeed does contain a deity".

So my question now is... why should I care beyond that? Because I think that's the question that is begged.

I'll remind you how my contribution began in this thread:

"Well, let's start with a real basic and simple reason" - Me, HERE, emphasis mine.

And then this:

"something tells me a "baby-steps" approach would be our best shot of shedding light on any of this" - Me, HERE

Then carefully read these:

"I won't pretend to be the one who will provide this possibility [i.e. a description of the relation between you and god which is a convincing reason to care if it exists or not] for you, but it is my hope"

"I don't mean to imply I have a different god than any other Christian, but I try to form a fuller picture of the Christian god every day. Being able to communicate that picture... not so easy." - Me, HERE