I think it's unlikely a sceptic atheist would ever become religious. But a non-sceptic who hasn't been raised religious could have a series of events, including some major life changing ones, which lead them to credit the local deity.

Even a sceptic could have an event so traumatising that it actually alters their brain, so that they become vulnerable to the emotional pull. We're all surrounded by religious mythology, and all it takes is for a crack to appear and it will all seep in.

So in my opinion, it's emotion/indoctrination versus logic. Also, there may well be some cases of conversions which are pragmatic pretense. (Prisons spring to mind.)

Oops, nevermind ^*^

(December 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Or maybe it just means they need to look into some other method of biblical interpretation besides Fundamentalism?

I cannot see any valid interpretation of that passage, or any other instruction regarding women in the bible for that matter, that isn' "women, know your place!"

(December 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Luckie Wrote:

(November 30, 2016 at 5:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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Then I'd say that sounds like a cultural thing more than any sort of official Church teaching. If you are saying Catholic theology teaches that women are objects, the burden is on you to show the Catechism verse that states such. 

Sorry, I'mnot a Catholic so I dont know what a 'Catechism verse' is. Does this count? It's from God's own mouth.

Quote:Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Sure it's in the old testament, the less regarded part of the bible, but Jesus said not a letter of OT law shall be overturned until the end of times (see my signature for reference).

Quote:Your comment was that women's senior most position in the Church is a flower arranger. Yes, that comment is 100% false. 

Then what is actually the ceiling for women within the Catholic church?

Quote:But anyway, as far as reproductive rights go - our teaching on abortion is based on our teaching concerning human dignity and the belief that it is immoral to take away innocent human life. It is not based on a belief that women are objects. Ironically enough, it is a fundamental belief that every human being has inherent and equal dignity, regardless of anything. Including age and gender.  

That may be the case for you and your Creed now. However, were you born thousands of years ago, things would be totally different under the same god that you worship now. 

What it says is so disgusting I feel like it needs hide quotes

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Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”.  Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants.  This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”

Leviticus 20:9 [i]“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
[/i]
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.



Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.  Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 [i]“And the king said unto her, What aileth thee?  And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.  So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”[/i]

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.  But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered.  Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.  And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.


Quoting the bible.
So what were we talking about? ohhhh yeah the value of human life as determined by those of your faith. 

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Quote:Also ironically enough, my aunt's pro life stance, which stemmed from her Catholicism, is what saved my sister when she was in my teenage mom's womb. Because SHE, a woman, was/is not an object or a "thing." But a human being who deserves to stay alive.

Thats funny my mom was forced into an abortion because of her dogmatic parents' beliefs. In any case, I'm an atheist and I'm anti abortion as well. *high fives Catholic Lady

Regarding women's authority in the church the highest they can go is head of an order of nuns, a position that has to defer to ordained priests. Hence the rwason why most nuns organisations are so angry.

Regarding abortion, the ban only came in in the 1860s (at the same time as papal infallibility). Prior to that it was allowed to either 40 days or 13 weeks depending on which date then current teaching thought ensoulment happened.

Cathechism is the rcc's attempt to imbue papal fiat with the same authority as the bible. Quite a lot of it is "yes the bible says x, while the pope says y. But it's ok as the pope speaks with god's voice and is thus never wrong".

(December 2, 2016 at 7:40 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(December 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Or maybe it just means they need to look into some other method of biblical interpretation besides Fundamentalism?

I cannot see any valid interpretation of that passage, or any other instruction regarding women in the bible for that matter, that isn' "women, know your place!"

Wow. You really cannot see any other valid interpretation of the bible than a literal, fundamentalist one? Makes me wonder if you hold every book to the same standard. Is every novel just a blatant confabulation of no use whatsoever, or can a story have some other meaning? You wouldn't be a fundamentalist atheist by any chance?

(December 2, 2016 at 8:11 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 7:40 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: I cannot see any valid interpretation of that passage, or any other instruction regarding women in the bible for that matter, that isn' "women, know your place!"

Wow.  You really cannot see any other valid interpretation of the bible than a literal, fundamentalist one?  Makes me wonder if you hold every book to the same standard.  Is every novel just a blatant confabulation of no use whatsoever, or can a story have some other meaning?  You wouldn't be a fundamentalist atheist by any chance?

Well when every utterance in a book about women is deeply misogynistic, you kind of have to take it at face value. And the religions which base themselves off that book are themselves deeply misogynistic.

(December 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 8:11 am)Whateverist Wrote: Wow.  You really cannot see any other valid interpretation of the bible than a literal, fundamentalist one?  Makes me wonder if you hold every book to the same standard.  Is every novel just a blatant confabulation of no use whatsoever, or can a story have some other meaning?  You wouldn't be a fundamentalist atheist by any chance?

Well when every utterance in a book about women is deeply misogynistic, you kind of have to take it at face value. And the religions which base themselves off that book are themselves deeply misogynistic.

What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

(December 1, 2016 at 10:22 pm)Balaco Wrote: For now, I've been doing some lighter research into atheists who converted into religion. Leah Libresco for example was apparently a notable atheist blogger who converted to Catholicism as it satisfied her questions about morals, primarily. I'm not sure how common it is, but in general why do you guys think some atheists end up converting to a religion?

In my experience the trigger is always emotional, even with Strong Atheists (Dawkins 7) who leave a logical door open.
Of course the emotional content invariably overrides logic and so it's difficult to track back and leads to post-hoc retro-fitted positions.

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Well when every utterance in a book about women is deeply misogynistic, you kind of have to take it at face value. And the religions which base themselves off that book are themselves deeply misogynistic.

What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

Yes, Mary. The ultimate rape victim.

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote: What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

Who is a male... That clearly means - the best female is inferior to the best male.

The male created the universe and humanity - even Mary herself. The male sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity. The male will judge humanity and give them everlasting life - again, including Mary herself, who is only venerated, due to male's grace.

The female - is a perfectly obedient recepticle/incubator, who knows how to keep her legs together. Twist it however you like, but women are inherently inferior according to pretty much every major monotheistic religion.

God without Mary is still God. Mary without god - is just some pr*ck-teasing b*tch.

Balaco Wrote:For now, I've been doing some lighter research into atheists who converted into religion. Leah Libresco for example was apparently a notable atheist blogger who converted to Catholicism as it satisfied her questions about morals, primarily. I'm not sure how common it is, but in general why do you guys think some atheists end up converting to a religion?

I think she's a typical case of an atheist converting: her fiancé' was Catholic, IIRC. Of the few cases where someone I knew to be atheist online, the only reasons for conversion they were able to articulate were emotional, usually involving a significant other.

Of the people I've run into who say they used to be atheists, almost all describe atheism differently than actual atheists do, which leads me to conclude that they think they used to be atheists because they misunderstand atheism. Their reasons they give for their previous 'atheism' tend to be stereotypical: they were angry at God (mad-at-God-ism is not atheism), they were sinners (drinking and fornicating aren't atheism), or they weren't born-again (not being 'saved' is not atheism). They say they were atheists, but most of them believed God was real during their 'atheist period'. Some will even use their belief in God as justification to claim that atheists secretly believe in God.

I'm always interested in atheist conversion stories, hoping that they'll have some kind of evidence or argument more convincing than what we usually see, but I have always been disappointed so far.