But never tested, because they can't be.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: To be fair, my theories on the afterlife are based on my understanding of God and of what we do know and what makes sense to me. They're not just pulled out of nowhere. I admit they could be very much wrong, as they are not what we would consider revealed truth, but they are what I think might be the case. That's why I said they are merely my own theories.

Interestingly I have seen this phrase come up over and over again throughout the years.  As if reality has to make sense to you or it doesn't count.  It's usually in the form of "It's the only thing that makes sense to me."  I've seen it in religious conversations, UFO conversations, crop circle conversations, Bigfoot conversations...you name it.  Fortunately the only thing that ever seems to "make sense" to the person saying it just happens to be exactly what they want very desperately to believe.  And anything that does NOT "make sense" to the person always seems to be something which challenges what they do not want to believe.  Evolution, for instance, never seems to "make sense" to a creationist.  And it has to or it doesn't count!

Don't know where I'm going with this.  I just find it interesting that I have been seeing this same phrase come up over and over again for various woo beliefs for about a decade now.

Homeless Nutter Wrote:You need find a better example, if you can. Perhaps string theory? That can't be tested yet. The thing is - string theory proponents don't get to arbitrarily dictate other people's morals, on the basis of their purely theoretical concept.

And hopefully they don't insist it's true in advance of the confirming evidence.

(December 6, 2016 at 2:20 pm)Tonus Wrote: The ones you answered in 1-6.  Without sufficient knowledge of heaven or hell, we can't really grasp what the afterlife is like.  You gave a more complete answer than I've seen before, which I appreciate, though there are areas where you are not sure.  My questions and descriptions, while facetious, were intended to explain that there is a lot we don't/can't know about them. [1] The most basic concepts that most people have are very simplistic and indicate that they have not thought about it much, which is mystifying in light of what it's supposed to represent (where you will spend the rest of an eternity). [2]

This implies that there are those who will not KNOW this truth until it is too late.  Is this what you meant? [3] If so, do you think that god will still sentence them to hell for an eternity? [4]

1) I would certainly agree that we know very little indeed.

2) I couldn't agree more.

3) Yes, that is exactly what that implies. I don't want that for anyone.

4) It depends on the extent of their interaction with the revelation of that knowledge in this life, and again, there are more variables in play than we usually think. There can be many different reasons why people don't come to know of this truth. Some of those reasons can be their fault. Others perhaps not. God sorts that out in the end. Like I've said before, God's mercy reaches farther than we tend to consider. The most fundamental thing is to seek the truth, and to remain open to truth, and to act according to what you honestly think is true. God can work with that, but he wants to give you more. He wants to give you his own divinity.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus."  -Romans 2:13-16

If a person loves goodness and truth, and tries to live what those things he loves, God can work with that (especially if that person has never heard the Gospel). But Jesus came to give you much more. He wants you to have the "more", but he also wants you to know what it is he is giving.

"I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly." -John 10:10

"For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice." -John 18:37

---

(December 6, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Asmodee Wrote: I don't think I've ever heard the claim before that both body and soul will live eternally.  Tell me, where do you get this and why would you want it? [1] I recently broke both elbows racing my daughter and I can tell you I don't want physical elbows in Heaven.  Why would I even need them if God, himself, is spirit? [2] You're saying that people are still going to have stinky buttholes in heaven? [3] Will the men have foreskins? [4] If yes, what about the Jews who cut theirs off as a covenant to God before Jesus?  Surely some of those will be in Heaven.  Would that mean their covenant has ended?  If no, how does that work for the uncircumcised?  Will God hire a doctor?  Will there be scaring like there is with earthly circumcision?  And what happens to the parts of the body that made up the foreskin?  That bit just stays rotting in the ground?  With there be Catholic graveyards full of coffins containing nothing but foreskins? [5]

This belief really brings up a whole lot more questions than it answers.  And it's not based on, literally, anything I have ever heard or read anywhere before. [6]

1) I get it from Jesus as mediated to the present time in the Bible, in the historically-continuous Christian communal way of life and its reflection on the Scriptures and the Christian communal way of life (i.e. Tradition), and from the present apostolic community which is historically continuous with Jesus's original community (i.e. the Church). 

"We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved." -Romans 8:22-24

2) Because God, who is spirit, united man, who is flesh, to his divinity in Jesus. Jesus is the divinity (pure spirit) united to humanity (body and spirit). You are NOT your body. You are NOT your soul. You ARE the UNITY of your body AND soul. If you want eternal life, you're gonna need your body. Even so, I wouldn't worry about broken elbows. The resurrected body will be incorruptible (can't break those bones!).

3) Highly doubtful. You might crap ice cream for all I know.

4) No idea. Maybe some will have them and others no? Something tells me I won't be concerned with the foreskin situation in heaven.

5) There won't be any graveyards at all. The ENTIRE WORLD will be renewed/remade/restored/divinized.

6) It's one of the most ancient beliefs. Even many of the Jews believed in it before Jesus (even if they didn't know the part about divinization). In fact, the Jewish Sadducee party explicitly rejected the bodily resurrection, which is why they came up with this little diddy:

"On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. They put this question to him, saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies 16 without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.' Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. Finally the woman died. Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her." -Matthew 22:23-28

I think several people here would have gotten along with these Sadducees! Several people here are as creative as they are with these sorts of "what if" questions.

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: 3) Yes, that is exactly what that implies. I don't want that for anyone.

We would presume that God does not want that either.  Yet...

Quote:4) It depends on the extent of their interaction with the revelation of that knowledge in this life, and again, there are more variables in play than we usually think. There can be many different reasons why people don't come to know of this truth. Some of those reasons can be their fault. Others perhaps not. God sorts that out in the end. Like I've said before, God's mercy reaches farther than we tend to consider. The most fundamental thing is to seek the truth, and to remain open to truth, and to act according to what you honestly think is true. God can work with that, but he wants to give you more. He wants to give you his own divinity.

Humans have been around for thousands --tens of thousands, at least-- of years and we have had the word of many gods given us over the past several centuries.  In spite of hundreds of years of meditation and discussion and research and learning, we still cannot seem to know God with sufficient certainty that even a simple majority of people follow him.  Among the major religions we have a great deal of fragmentation, some of it major and some of it minor.  Many individuals within specific denominations may not know the belief systems they claim to follow aside from some basics.  It seems that we have been left purposely adrift, with many billions of people sharing only two beliefs-- that God exists, and that it's my God (or conversely, that it isn't your god).

Quote:"I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly." -John 10:10

He also said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." -Matthew 7:13,14.  This is God himself (or His son, depending on your denomination) who admits that it is difficult to locate and follow the right path and that only a few even find it, much less navigate it successfully.

How can we square the image of a God who wants us all to join him in an eternal heaven with the one who wrote off most of humanity thousands of years ago?

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Asmodee Wrote: I don't think I've ever heard the claim before that both body and soul will live eternally.  Tell me, where do you get this and why would you want it? [1] I recently broke both elbows racing my daughter and I can tell you I don't want physical elbows in Heaven.  Why would I even need them if God, himself, is spirit? [2] You're saying that people are still going to have stinky buttholes in heaven? [3] Will the men have foreskins? [4] If yes, what about the Jews who cut theirs off as a covenant to God before Jesus?  Surely some of those will be in Heaven.  Would that mean their covenant has ended?  If no, how does that work for the uncircumcised?  Will God hire a doctor?  Will there be scaring like there is with earthly circumcision?  And what happens to the parts of the body that made up the foreskin?  That bit just stays rotting in the ground?  With there be Catholic graveyards full of coffins containing nothing but foreskins? [5]

This belief really brings up a whole lot more questions than it answers.  And it's not based on, literally, anything I have ever heard or read anywhere before. [6]

1) I get it from Jesus as mediated to the present time in the Bible, in the historically-continuous Christian communal way of life and its reflection on the Scriptures and the Christian communal way of life (i.e. Tradition), and from the present apostolic community which is historically continuous with Jesus's original community (i.e. the Church). 

Wow. That is a frigging mouth full of unintelligible nonsense. I'm just going to read that as, "I made it up" and move on.

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: "We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved." -Romans 8:22-24

2) Because God, who is spirit, united man, who is flesh, to his divinity in Jesus. Jesus is the divinity (pure spirit) united to humanity (body and spirit). You are NOT your body. You are NOT your soul. You ARE the UNITY of your body AND soul. If you want eternal life, you're gonna need your body. Even so, I wouldn't worry about broken elbows. The resurrected body will be incorruptible (can't break those bones!).

Good to know. So I'll be Superman. Cool.

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: 3) Highly doubtful. You might crap ice cream for all I know.

So that's a soft "no" on the stinky buttholes, but a probable "yes" on the buttholes in general?

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: 4) No idea. Maybe some will have them and others no? Something tells me I won't be concerned with the foreskin situation in heaven.

It's kind of important. I'm not circumcised and, frankly, I don't want to be at 90.

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: 5) There won't be any graveyards at all. The ENTIRE WORLD will be renewed/remade/restored/divinized.

o...k... So, all the matter that makes up my body, that's going to make my new, better, Superman body, which will be uncorruptable because...um...physics no longer apply? We'll just mark that one down as "magic" and move on. But the matter of the world, coffins won't make coffins they'll make...um...flowers, or something.

(December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Ignorant Wrote: 6) It's one of the most ancient beliefs. Even many of the Jews believed in it before Jesus (even if they didn't know the part about divinization). In fact, the Jewish Sadducee party explicitly rejected the bodily resurrection, which is why they came up with this little diddy:

Oh, good. I was afraid it was one of those new fangled beliefs based on empirical evidence and science and whatnot. You know, "stupid stuff".

(December 6, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Wow.  That is a frigging mouth full of unintelligible nonsense.  I'm just going to read that as, "I made it up" and move on. [1]

Good to know.  So I'll be Superman.  Cool. [2]

So that's a soft "no" on the stinky buttholes, but a probable "yes" on the buttholes in general? [3]

It's kind of important.  I'm not circumcised and, frankly, I don't want to be at 90. [4]

o...k...  So, all the matter that makes up my body, that's going to make my new, better, Superman body, which will be uncorruptable because...um...physics no longer apply?  We'll just mark that one down as "magic" and move on. [5] But the matter of the world, coffins won't make coffins they'll make...um...flowers, or something. [6]

Oh, good.  I was afraid it was one of those new fangled beliefs based on empirical evidence and science and whatnot.  You know, "stupid stuff". [7]

1) Do as you will.

2) Yup

3) Yup

4) You won't have to go through the actual cutting if that is what you meant. Foreskin or not, you will rise with whichever is the case.

5) You can call it magic if you want. It's incorruptible because the matter itself upon which physics operates is new and restored. We don't know what that will be like. But as true, it would demand different physical properties (one of which being incorruptibility).

6) No one will be dead and no one will die. The reality and the purpose of graveyards will no longer exist.

7) Your concern was that you hadn't heard about this teaching. I brought them up to show that its been around for a while, not that the Saduccees are stupid.

Don't hear too many physicists throwing the term 'corruption' around.

(December 6, 2016 at 6:22 pm)Tonus Wrote: We would presume that God does not want that either.  Yet... [1]

Humans have been around for thousands --tens of thousands, at least-- of years and we have had the word of many gods given us over the past several centuries.  In spite of hundreds of years of meditation and discussion and research and learning, we still cannot seem to know God with sufficient certainty that even a simple majority of people follow him.  Among the major religions we have a great deal of fragmentation, some of it major and some of it minor.  Many individuals within specific denominations may not know the belief systems they claim to follow aside from some basics.  It seems that we have been left purposely adrift, with many billions of people sharing only two beliefs-- that God exists, and that it's my God (or conversely, that it isn't your god). [2]

He also said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." -Matthew 7:13,14.  This is God himself (or His son, depending on your denomination) who admits that it is difficult to locate and follow the right path and that only a few even find it, much less navigate it successfully. [3]

How can we square the image of a God who wants us all to join him in an eternal heaven with the one who wrote off most of humanity thousands of years ago? [4]

1) We'll get to that...

2) Yes, the lack of unity is scandalizing. There are only two possibilities. Either EVERYONE is wrong about god, OR one group has it all right. Everyone tends to think they are that group. 

But if one group has it ALL right, that doesn't mean that everyone else has it ALL wrong. It's not all or nothing. Some people have most things right, but are missing other things. Some have most things wrong, even if they have some things right. As I've said several times already: The bare minimum is that you live your life according to the truth and goodness that you know and are honestly trying to know more about. God can work with that. He can work with anything if that disposition is at the center of your life. 

So if that center of your life lives according to an incomplete version of god as truth and goodness, God can work with that, and he will judge you according to how much you know about truth. The more you know about the truth about god, the more evident it becomes if your central attitude is not one of acting in truth and goodness and progressing in the knowledge of those things. But if that disposition remains, AND you have the full knowledge of god he has given, you can live a truly divine life in THIS life. You won't have to wait.

3) Yes. Perhaps few people care to grow in the knowledge of truth and goodness? Maybe, knowing that, God sent his son to give them this knowledge gratuitously.

4) While I would not accept the suggestion that god wrote people off, you ask a good question. This is what I would say. What-god-wants is for his creatures to come to the fullness of what they are. God's will for people's life, therefore, is expressed and evident in what-humanity-is. Just by being human, you express to others that God made people to achieve full-humanity through their own actions. In other words, since being fully-human means to become human-goodness, your own humanity is a sign of what-god-wants, i.e. eternal life of goodness.

Everyone does not necessarily reach this fullness. Not everyone actually lives in a way that fills their humanity with goodness, even though god made them as things which seek to do this.

(December 7, 2016 at 6:15 am)Ignorant Wrote: But if one group has it ALL right, that doesn't mean that everyone else has it ALL wrong. It's not all or nothing. Some people have most things right, but are missing other things. Some have most things wrong, even if they have some things right. As I've said several times already: The bare minimum is that you live your life according to the truth and goodness that you know and are honestly trying to know more about. God can work with that. He can work with anything if that disposition is at the center of your life.

If there is agreement on details here and there --but no unified understanding of the person being worshiped-- that can also be a case of people blindly flinging darts at a wall. You may get clusters of darts here and there, but that just means that people looking in the same direction will naturally come up with a few similar ideas. We're talking about a being who appeared to people in more than one form and performed works of pure magic so that they had no other choice than to know he was real and that he was more than just another person. Then he is gone and humanity can't figure out who he is anymore.

Quote:3) Yes. Perhaps few people care to grow in the knowledge of truth and goodness?

Does that really seem to be the case? I've known a lot of religious people in my life, and I can't recall many of them who did not consider truth and goodness to be important. Most people strike me as being sincere in their religious belief and in their desire to be considered a good person. If few of them are finding the gate that leads to life, it's not out of a lack of desire. The instructions are not very useful.

Quote:4) While I would not accept the suggestion that god wrote people off, you ask a good question. This is what I would say. What-god-wants is for his creatures to come to the fullness of what they are. God's will for people's life, therefore, is expressed and evident in what-humanity-is. Just by being human, you express to others that God made people to achieve full-humanity through their own actions. In other words, since being fully-human means to become human-goodness, your own humanity is a sign of what-god-wants, i.e. eternal life of goodness.

I'm fine with these explanations, but they seem to go beyond what the Bible explains. Are there ways to know for certain that god wishes for us to come to our fullness, as opposed to expecting only a few of us to find the path to life? The latter would square with the old testament god who separated out a small tribe and used it to visit judgment on other tribes, only showing mercy to one tribe that offered itself up as servants. Could this not be an example of what God has in mind for the future, where he sets aside a very small group and accepts them as his nation, then leaves the rest to suffering and destruction?