The way I look at it, deism makes two unnecessary assumptions at a minimum:

1) Our reality had a cause
2) That cause was an intelligent being

You can easily make more, as a lot of people probably do:

3) This being required no cause
4) This being created everything except itself

These second two preclude a computer programmer type situation, making sure it's the "top dog".

Once you move beyond this, you're just adding even more unnecessary assumptions. The more you make, the less rational you are being, in my opinion.

5) The being is concerned with the human race
6) The being is going to move us out of our reality when we die, into other realities, based on certain rules
7) The being interferes with our reality

...and so on. You're making more and more wild assumptions at each point. Of course, the theist will feel that they have justification for all of these, so they won't consider them assumptions necessarily.

(January 4, 2017 at 1:05 am)robvalue Wrote: The way I look at it, deism makes two unnecessary assumptions at a minimum:

1) Our reality had a cause
2) That cause was an intelligent being

You can easily make more, as a lot of people probably do:

3) This being required no cause
4) This being created everything except itself

These second two preclude a computer programmer type situation, making sure it's the "top dog".

Once you move beyond this, you're just adding even more unnecessary assumptions. The more you make, the less rational you are being, in my opinion.

5) The being is concerned with the human race
6) The being is going to move us out of our reality when we die, into other realities, based on certain rules
7) The being interferes with our reality

...and so on. You're making more and more wild assumptions at each point. Of course, the theist will feel that they have justification for all of these, so they won't consider them assumptions necessarily.

I know all that already, I'm just asking if there's a name for it. Like the 'rockslide fallacy', where if you tip one rock over the precipice, then without having touched any of the other rocks on the cliff, they just simply follow the first one over the edge for no reason. I don't know if there is an official name, that's just kind of the way I look at it and my suggestion for a name if there isn't one for that type of rapid-fire piling on of fallacies.

Yeah, you asked that in a different thread (Hall of fallacies) where I answered.

I wasn't directly replying to you there, sorry for any confusion. I was just comparing the rationality levels, as some people seem to consider deism more irrational.

(January 4, 2017 at 1:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, you asked that in a different thread (Hall of fallacies) where I answered.

I wasn't directly replying to you there, sorry for any confusion. I was just comparing the rationality levels, as some people seem to consider deism more irrational.

This is what happens when I have too many tabs open at once.

(January 3, 2017 at 2:28 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: We have these people going around talking about they believe in god but not organized religion. What's the point? If god merely exists but is unable or unwilling to play a part in human affairs what difference does it make if we believe in him or not? Mere belief without a call to action has no virtue.

Could it be you do not understand what religion is when it comes to the God of the Bible. John the Baptist never attended organized religious services, he preached what the Holy Spirit showed him. He had no building nor plates to take a collection, he wasn't paid, he did tithe with what he had and that was time and loyalty. He worked in the community as hard as anyone ever has and Jesus commended him on his service. In the end he gave his life for what he knew to be true.

GC

'And the Lord saith unto the people, "Do ye nothing in my name".  I'd be OK with that.  People walking about with somewhat nebulous ideas about God strikes me as preferable to a situation where people know exactly what God wants and exactly how I should behave and exactly what they need to do to make sure I get it right.

I tend to rate religions by how much they pester me. I can honestly say that Deists have never shown up at my door of a Sunday morning with pamphlets.

Boru

(January 4, 2017 at 1:52 am)Godschild Wrote:

(January 3, 2017 at 2:28 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: We have these people going around talking about they believe in god but not organized religion. What's the point? If god merely exists but is unable or unwilling to play a part in human affairs what difference does it make if we believe in him or not? Mere belief without a call to action has no virtue.

Could it be you do not understand what religion is when it comes to the God of the Bible. John the Baptist never attended organized religious services, he preached what the Holy Spirit showed him. He had no building nor plates to take a collection, he wasn't paid, he did tithe with what he had and that was time and loyalty. He worked in the community as hard as anyone ever has and Jesus commended him on his service. In the end he gave his life for what he knew to be true.

GC

No, he gave his life for a belief that had no basis in reality. That happens. 

But does remind of an event back in the '70s. A stoner we call "Grass Head" (a devout Southern Baptist) needed to replace his toilet. I worked on removed the old one while some friends went to the supply house for a new toilet. When they got back they yelled in to ask if they should move it into the bathroom.  I replied, "Yes, bring me the john of Head the Baptist."

(January 3, 2017 at 6:28 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Like the religions about Jesus vs the religion of Jesus ?

Well yes.

Religions of Jesus can literally do anything in the name of God it wants. (and has done so) Open you History books, and look at 2000 years of what church 'history' can assimilate into what it deems a righteous religion. Or how it determines God's will, without any biblical support or precedent. Look at the Dark ages, look at the inquisition, or the crusades... Look at how hertics were treated. None of these behaivors were ever modeled by Christ. This was all the business of worshiping the church not Christ himself. The first time the church schismed from the teachings of Christ (Such as turn the other cheek rather than torture someone who sinned against the church, That religion stopped being about Jesus.

Look again at what Judaism had become in the time of Christ and they had a very comprehensive list. Things to follow and worship. But, by the time Christ had arrived it had become so perverse that He/Christ spent most of His time railing against the most holy men of his day. This perversion of Religion is just something we all do.

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(January 3, 2017 at 6:30 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(January 3, 2017 at 2:28 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: We have these people going around talking about they believe in god but not organized religion. What's the point? If god merely exists but is unable or unwilling to play a part in human affairs what difference does it make if we believe in him or not? Mere belief without a call to action has no virtue.

It means they have even less to do with regard to religion. No books to read, no "good deeds" done in "God's" name, no services to attend, no tithes to pay. 

One step from me. 

sorry sport no. All of those things are modeled in scripture by Christ, so a worship of Christ would indeed include good works. As far as 'reading' is concerned for me it has doubbled if not trippled over the years to ensure I am on the path the bible lays out.

You know your entire concept of Christ and Christianity was decided upon by men, right? Council of Nycea ring any bells?

(January 3, 2017 at 6:38 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Back in the day when I was religious I went through that period of, God without religion, before binning the whole idea of God. For me I saw the Bible and all the other books of faith, I quickly looked through, as a signpost towards the "REAL" God. I was taught that through the Holy Spirit we could know God so I took that to the logical conclusion that I didn't need any help; I can just plug right into the G to get the straight dope!

Anyway it is a GREAT way to just make shit up and support it with good feelings and wooey bullshit. You might as well sew your lips to your own asshole for all the good it does.

Yay! So that is why I worship Atheos or the Invisible Pink Unicorn and sometimes the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

excellent example of how pride comes before a great fall.

I would sumize that a humble man might come at the bible and that passage with a different approach. In that if the Holy Spirit is to teach me how am I going to recognize his voice unless I know his teachings.. After all the H/S is not the only being the 'teaches.' (Mo-ham and Joseph Smith) are two good examples. So then if I am to be taught at the right hand of God if I am to be 'plugged into God' then I must first learn to hear Him or rather identify his base content as found in the bible. Once you do that you will note that you are being lead away from the things you want in favor of that, that has been written down in scripture. and later still you will note a change in that what you truly want are the thing the bible spells out as they bring you closer to God. Why? because You get far more positive interactions, a sense of contentment and well being. Answers to petitions and prayers. in essence a direct line to God. If you have ever experienced this you will want it to continue.

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(January 3, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Astonished Wrote: As long as they don't expect me to respect them any more than I do the Westboro Baptists, the Taliban or that church two doors down from where I live that creates a significant traffic hazard for me when I try to bike through that intersection on weekends, they can call themselves whatever the fuck they want.

If you can't defend your reason for believing in what you do any better than anyone else with an irrational system of belief, really, you're no different. They may have gotten 2+2 = 5 instead of 2+2=11 like some of the fundamentalists, but they're still wrong.

It's good you keep such a tightly closed mind on such things. I'd hate for you to have an independent thought.

Like: If the Westbrough congregation are doing things outside the scope of scripture that defines and limits what a Christian is, and yet can still be counted a christian as per the 'religion.' Then it is the word or organization of 'religion' is the problem and not a group of people that go by the same name that can legitimately stand in total opposition.

No, I think it better for you to keep your mind closed, lord know what would happen if people like you were able express and propagate new and original thought. It is just far easier to label you a bigot, make fun of you and never think of you again.