(January 12, 2017 at 10:24 am)Yadayadayada Wrote: So, what EXACTLY would you need to see to be able to say, "Wow yes, there is a God..."  What do you consider evidence?

You're going to continue asking this question for pages regardless of what anyone says to you.  I know you think it's clever, so did everyone else who asked the same question, once or twice a month, every month, for all of the years I've been here. 

Get to the moneyshot already.

Yadayadayada Wrote:So, what EXACTLY would you need to see to be able to say, "Wow yes, there is a God..."  What do you consider evidence?

You mean, what would I consider convincing evidence, if such evidence existed? I set the bar as low as I can stand, for me personally, the right words from the right person would get me back in church, at least trying to believe, for the sake of my loved ones.

For a bar not set arbitrarily low, evidence for a creator would be evidence that the universe is not the result of natural processes...that still wouldn't point to a God, there doesn't seem any reason that omnipotence or omniscience would be required to create a universe. Some adolescent could hit the 'run universe' button or a universe could be a by-product of particle-smashing experiments. But establishing any kind of creator would be a start.

(January 11, 2017 at 4:01 pm)Yadayadayada Wrote: Atheists, please define "evidence".

evidence
[ev-i-duh ns]

noun
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:
His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.



What sort of evidence would "tend to prove" the existence of God?
- The non-absence of said God.

You see? when people talk about a god, any god, even your God, they mean a concept which has been passed down through the generations... this concept has naturally evolved, some features have been discarded, others enhanced, others added.
Given the patent and obvious absence of any god in the present day reality, I am forced to ask what did the original concept of god look like?
Better yet, how did that concept appear on human minds?
a) god put it there, by some form of telepathy.
b) god actually appeared and physically interacted with humans to pass on the concept.
c) people invented it.
d) some other?


What I see believers constantly espousing is something along the lines of a), with b) being rejected for it would raise wayyy too many questions.
But the interesting bit is that, c) is virtually indistinguishable from a), from our present-day point of view. So, how can we tell which happened?
One approach is to look at humans today and see what seems more likely - that they invented something, or that they were given that something?
If the god that is has the capacity to telepathically implant a concept on our minds AND has not been shy about doing it in the past, then why are there multiple concepts of god? why are there atheists?
It seems an odd contradiction, doesn't it?
So, the most logical possibility is that the concept was invented.

I doubt it was invented in a vacuum. I think it sprouted from a pre-existing concept for the human soul... which is something with a pretty clear origin, as we consider our minds as entities separate from our bodies. The mind becomes a soul, an entity which can transcend the mortality of the body. But transcends where? how?... some other realm? Dreams and hallucinations seem to be portals to that other realm... If a realm it is, it needs a ruler, the first soul, call it a king, a father, a god.
And the rest is history fueled by human ingenuity and imagination.

But do note that the theme of the father and king/ruler of the other realm remains more or less intact across religions.
Keep the people subjugated to that otherworldly ruler, while propagating the concept that such a ruler exists, and the people will kneel to it, will yield authority to it.
Enter the occasional charismatic "prophet" (or charismatic person talking about a prophet) taking advantage of such an accepting crowd and you see leaps in religious adherence.... you see new religions.

(January 12, 2017 at 10:07 am)Yadayadayada Wrote: I couldn't really find an answer in all of your drivel Esquilax. Again the question is:  What do you consider evidence for the existence of God?

---

Hmm, so you weren't paying attention. Alright, slower this time:

I'd consider the same things as I would for any other thing. Think of what it'd take to convince a reasonable person that you had, say, a specific kind of coin in your pocket. You'd just take it out and show it, right? That'd do. Or, hell, you might just jingle it against your keys in your pocket, that might do it. Direct observation or some means of consistently detecting it would do just fine; it's not even a high bar of evidence. It's extremely low.

What I won't take, for a supernatural claim that contradicts a lot of what we know to be true about reality, is a bunch of pseudo-scientific or philosophical arguments about why such a being must exist. A claim like that demands higher levels of evidence than waffle. I also won't accept any argument portending to show that god is the best explanation for this or for that, which I believe you alluded to earlier, unless that same argument begins with well supported and verifiable calculations showing the probability of a god versus other explanations, something that's curiously always lacking in those sorts of arguments. You cannot show the most probable answer without a calculation of that probability, after all.

I think we're dancing around the real issue here, though, which is that your god cannot supply that sort of evidence. The god as described in the bible has a whole lot of lifting to do overturning very basic things we know to be true about physical reality before that point, and I don't think you or any other theist is up to that.

(January 11, 2017 at 10:52 pm)Yadayadayada Wrote:

[edit Wrote: But for the purpose of this topic, I am referring to God as the Creator of the universe, the First Cause. Whether he is a personal God who answers prayers etc. is not relevant. My question is, specifically, what would it take for an atheist to believe in a Creator? pid='1485452' dateline='1484174968']

Easy. If a god then show up in my presence out of thin air. If a creator, start creating stuff out of thin air at request and in my presence (well not really air, just a saying, create out of nothing). I'll settle for a lamb (if I remember right, it used to do this). 

If a god, it knew this request for evidence even as I was typing. I looked all over the house (even in the cloths dryer) no new presence. Maybe it is shy and hiding in a way that I can't perceive. If so, why didn't it start creating stuff. Again, looked around the house and in the yard, no lamb. 

OK, I've made my request(s) that went unfulfilled. What are you willing to provide?

Also, I don't know what "God" is. Everyone has their own idea. What is it?

If you can't tell me that, I can't possibly say what evidence would be required.

(January 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm)robvalue Wrote: Also, I don't know what "God" is. Everyone has their own idea. What is it?

If you can't tell me that, I can't possibly say what evidence would be required.

If it shows up I'll ask it.

(January 12, 2017 at 10:35 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 10:24 am)Yadayadayada Wrote: So, what EXACTLY would you need to see to be able to say, "Wow yes, there is a God..."  What do you consider evidence?

You're going to continue asking this question for pages regardless of what anyone says to you.  I know you think it's clever...

Actually, I don't think it's "clever" at all, I think it's a very simple question. Not sure why are you struggling to answer.

Quote:Get to the moneyshot already.

There is no "moneyshot". It's a simple question.
 

Quote:Also, I don't know what "God" is. Everyone has their own idea. What is it?

If you can't tell me that, I can't possibly say what evidence would be required.

But you call yourself an atheist, right?

atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

How come you lack belief in God if you don't know what God is? How can you not know what it is you don't believe in?

(January 11, 2017 at 10:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I am sincerely interested in why you think that. Could you please elaborate?

Firstly, the universe is most certainly not entirely intelligible. Quantum mechanics basically goes against everything that appears intuitive about the universe, like completely rewriting the rules of cause and effect. Plus, our understanding of physics breaks down in a black hole. That's not to say that maybe one day we will be able to reconcile quantum mechanics with relativity, but there are definitely holes in our understanding that seem beyond our capabilities to grasp. Even if we could figure these things out, they would be such esoteric solutions that only a handful of people on this planet would be able to understand it. I wouldn't exactly call that intelligible.

Secondly, science has shown that human reason is notoriously flawed. Our perceptions and thought processes are riddled with bias, and our memories have been shown to be largely made up of information our brain invented and cobbled together. Hell, it's been shown that it's fairly easy to use the power of suggestion to get people to think they've experienced things that they haven't. The fact is we're not all that great at truly discerning reality. That's why we need a process that allows us to verify people's hypotheses.

(January 12, 2017 at 10:07 am)Yadayadayada Wrote:

(January 11, 2017 at 11:30 pm)21stCenturyIconoclast Wrote: Yadayadayada,

God damn it, when will you pagan god freaks ever learn?!  Which god of the primitive Bronze and Iron Age are you talking about???

Don't be like the ever so inept Neo-Scholasitc, Catholic Lady, Drich, Phillip2, et al, okay?  By you using the term "god," you act as though 
there is only one god which is laughable!  For the sake of your further embarrassment, I have included a list of many pagan 
gods throughout history,  so please pick from the list below in which primitive god you're referring too! 


Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, 
Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, 
Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, 
Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, 
Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, 
Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, 
Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, 
Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, 
Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, 
Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, 
Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, 
Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, 
Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama. 





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We're not at all discussing what or which god etc. That would detract from my question.

Yadayadayada,

Oh, but it certainly does when it comes to EVIDENCE!  Do you need help in picking out your god concept from the list
that I've shown you?  Do you want to break it down, by lets saying, who is the most brutal serial killing god known
in the primitive Bronze and Iron Age?

I know, to make it simpler for you, what writings from said god do you read from?


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