Rank Bullshit.   "For all have sinned and fallen short".  A christian might want to tell their children the truth, rather than wishy washy cafeteria christianity.  


Calvin told us that non-elect children are damned.  The catholic church has long maintained that a child could be damned.  "Sin" has nothing to do with an "age of accountability".

You're confusing your faith based positions with vastly improved secular law, lol.

(January 29, 2017 at 1:42 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(January 28, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Astonished Wrote:

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In all genuine honesty...and I just came up with this today, and someone making a threat about hell in one of the threads convinced me it has to be asked. Please, don't hate me, this is not done out of malice or perversion, and is simply a ghastly version of a reductio ad absurdum.

To any person who will tell a child that they are a miserable sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment - regardless of how easy they claim it will be to avoid this (and remember, you still deserve it, you've just been given undeserved mercy via salvation, right? You're still scum but they let you into the country club) - what is stopping you from saying that child deserves to be, say, raped? Surely flesh-searing torment without end is a worse fate, and surely some lava-skinned demon down there is going to get their hands on you at some point, right? So why would you say one and not the other, if one is far, far worse and yet can't be experienced on earth?

I expect the answers will disregard the fact that we are disregarding salvation, and be flimsy excuses at best rather than actual answers. If this does not prove once and for all anyone who ever introduces the concept of hell to a child is no different from a predator, nothing will.

If this was a step too far, just delete it. I'm so disgusted with religious people right now, I can't even separate them from their faith.

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For those who argue against objective morality, there isn’t really a problem (how is rape wrong under a subjective morality) However; that is a different subject; and I’ll assume objective morality in the answer.

Well, first off all, there versions of secular morality that do have a objective basis, if the definition of objective is "Not dependent on the mind for existence". But you are correct, that is another subject.

Quote:I think that there are a couple of aspects to your question.  The first has to do with why something is wrong.   In the case of rape, I think that this has more to do with the why; rather than the what is occurring.   C.S. Lewis made the distinction of intentions when discussing morality, rather than the outcome.  He stated, that we are angry with the person, who attempts to trip us up, yet fails.  But not angry with the person who trips us by accident; even when the result is injury. There may initially be some emotion from the injury or embarrassment, but I think that for a rational person, this should subside.    Now from the principle in your example, the second case is “far worse” in result, so shouldn’t we be able to compare them?  I think that the answer is no, because the intentions do make a difference.   In the case of rape, the motivations are selfish, and set themselves on something that God has set apart to be Holy.  

The second aspect, is that I think you are working from a pop culture caricature of hell.  A Greek Orthodox would describe hell and the torment therein; as a result of separation from God.    I do agree with this view, but also think that some can take it too far (making it purely emotional and  self-inflicted), and I believe ignoring some parts of scripture.  While I believe that most of the descriptions of hell in the Bible are symbolic; they still represent that which they are symbolizing.  What the Bible describes is the consequences of sin, and the result of separation from God.  

So the answer is no; I wouldn’t agree with what you proposed, or do anything like that.  I don’t think that it is an equivalent comparison, nor accurate of the Biblical description.  I also assume that you are speaking of a fairly young child; in which case, I’m not going to have a discussion the way you represented it; in the first place.

But then the question was not meant for you then, since the question was meant for Christians that do tell their children the version of hell described in the OP. Quite a few Christians, I am sure you will agree.

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(January 30, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: This is a non-starter. 

Why would any Christian tell a child he/she is a terrible sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment? No Christian denomination that I know of believes that that child is accountable for their sins until some "age of accountability" where they can understand such things. Only God could know when a person is to be culpable for their sins. In some cases, a person's mental disabilities might prevent that from happening their whole life. 

The rest of your reasoning is nonsense and your conclusions faulty.

Please quote Bible chapter and verse were it is mentioned that a child is not accountable until some "age of accountability".

(January 30, 2017 at 5:01 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

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(January 30, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: This is a non-starter. 

Why would any Christian tell a child he/she is a terrible sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment? No Christian denomination that I know of believes that that child is accountable for their sins until some "age of accountability" where they can understand such things. Only God could know when a person is to be culpable for their sins. In some cases, a person's mental disabilities might prevent that from happening their whole life. 

The rest of your reasoning is nonsense and your conclusions faulty.

Please quote Bible chapter and verse were it is mentioned that a child is not accountable until some "age of accountability".

It is inferred if rejection of God is the sin that sends you to hell, that if you are not old enough (or otherwise capable) to hear and understand the message in order to reject it, a person cannot be guilty of it. That is not to say that children do not have sin natures (anyone who has had a child knows that well enough).

How is rape wrong under subjective morality? Because of the subjective reasons people hold. It's not objectively subjectively wrong of course, because that would be a contradiction. Some people may consider it subjectively not wrong.

It's only "objectively wrong" if the person making that statement defines it to be wrong. It's meaningless.

This "objective morality" business is a real grind. I need to make another video about it or something. All it means is "my subjective morality". There's an infinite amount of systems to choose from. Pointing at a book or imaginary figure is no less arbitrary. Fixed does not mean objective; at least not in the sense that it "beats" any other system. Any arbitrary system is fixed, and the "ideal" morality depends entirely on the goals set out by the person for their morality.

(January 28, 2017 at 7:29 pm)Thal Wrote: Didn't the admin just put a ban on clickbait topics titles?

It isn't clickbait if the OP is asking a genuine question. Not to mention there's no link anywhere pointing to any website considered clickbait.

Moving on now.

(January 30, 2017 at 6:36 pm)robvalue Wrote: This "objective morality" business is a real grind. I need to make another video about it or something. All it means is "my subjective morality". 

Nah, though you'd think that's what it meant by the way christers employ it, granted.

(January 30, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: Why would any Christian tell a child he/she is a terrible sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment? No Christian denomination that I know of believes that that child is accountable for their sins until some "age of accountability" where they can understand such things. Only God could know when a person is to be culpable for their sins. In some cases, a person's mental disabilities might prevent that from happening their whole life. 

This has got to be the biggest lie out of this whole thread. And you know it. According to the abrahamic god, one can't enter into the kingdom of heaven unless he is "born again". Meaning, when you're born the "first" time, you are born with sin. But please, feel free to sugarcoat that bullshit all you like just so you christians have an excuse to feel better about verbally abusing your kids with threats of being sent to hell by an entity that just doesn't exist at all.

Christians are well known for filling their kids with all sorts of glossed over stories about the atrocities committed by their god. They just like to make them sound pretty. See Noah's ark for a perfect example of how christians make genocide, committed by their very own god, appealing to small children. And if you think that there isn't a christian denomination out there that hasn't done this very thing with Noah's ark, then you, good sir, are full of shit.

I can full well remember (back when I still believed in this non-sense) attending a non-denominational church one time and inquiring about a baptism service for my then 8 year old daughter. She was asked a series of questions and had to state that she believes that "the lord jesus christ is my personal savior and died to save me from my sins". Now I ask you - what the actual fuck has an EIGHT YEAR OLD CHILD done that was so damned horrible that she needed a personal savior to save her from?

I'll answer that for you - It's nothing. Nothing at all. Because she was 8 and innocent and good and really, had I woken up sooner, the only thing she would have needed saving from was the non-sense she was being fed from a pastor who got uncomfortable when I started asking some questions of my own.

Christians tell their kids all sorts of things that are bullshit just to indoctrinate them into brainwashed thinking that a magical sky daddy loves them but.... is going to send them to hell unless they give him all of their unconditional love and always put him first. Fuck that. I can't see you - I ain't putting you first. Period. You fail to show up during crucial times in my life where people have told me you'd actually be there, but you fail miserably in that regard. You watch people starve to death when you could easily provide mana from heaven, yet you fail. You watch people dying of disease you could so, in your omni-everything, abolish, yet you fail. You get piled into the "things I don't give two fucks about" section of my life. And I can sleep at night knowing I don't have to worry about some stupid imaginary deity sending me to some imaginary hell because I refuse to drink their kool-aid.

(January 28, 2017 at 8:33 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(January 28, 2017 at 6:43 pm)Jesster Wrote: Of course, they always seem to say that it's not them making the judgement; it's their god.

In the last little while I've been holding people to account by saying "You're the one who's communicating the threat.  You seem to think that I'm deserving of eternal torture.  Own it, or shut the fuck up."

This is what I'm getting at, yeah. I'm just saying there's literally no difference, but if someone told their child the latter thing, I'd do everything in my power to have them arrested. It's just baffling that there is some kind of protective barrier around abuse of a religious nature. It needs to fucking stop.

OFC there's no difference, some folks fantasies of what hell will be like for the non-believers include rape as just one of the perks of being damned. Others peddle a "separated from god" line of bullshit that even -they- don't believe, as a few minutes of choice words about their faith and their god will tease out of them.

(January 30, 2017 at 10:05 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 28, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Astonished Wrote: In all genuine honesty...and I just came up with this today, and someone making a threat about hell in one of the threads convinced me it has to be asked. Please, don't hate me, this is not done out of malice or perversion, and is simply a ghastly version of a reductio ad absurdum.

What a self righteous douche.

One the wage of sin is death. Not forever torment. You have confused bible lore with what the bible actually says.. This would give most intellectually honest people a moment to pause and take inventory of what it is they do know about the bible... but not you. You seem to fancy yourself on at least the bible basics so you plow ahead introduce a Base rate fallacy and make a judgement that because what YOU say "A" is True then "B" must also be true, that religious people are evil. Here's the thing moron.. A is not true and B is not true..

On a side note, how did you like the election results?

The one thing the election results said loud and clear is that America is tired and will be shaking off the hippy douche bag red tinted glasses we have been looking through for the last 8 years, and will start looking at things honestly and openly again. Hopfully you will lemming along with the rest of the crowd and learn to be an honest judge of character and learn a little tolerance.

for instance lets shine some honesty on your dishonest assessment of Christianity:

Quote:To any person who will tell a child that they are a miserable sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment - regardless of how easy they claim it will be to avoid this (and remember, you still deserve it, you've just been given undeserved mercy via salvation, right? You're still scum but they let you into the country club)

One, once a child can honestly see and identify sin then at that point he is responsible for his actions. and like anyone else must seek atonement for those sins. This is true in or out of religion. Most people simply use different terms, unless you are one of those horrible free range parents who let their kid shit on the floor at grocery store, and breasts feeds them till they want to stop (15/18 whatever) Why because a child's will is not that of a greater social order it is that of selfishness, and at some point even the most vial free ranger must put some sort of restriction or balance on the child even if it just to turn the child into a hippy douche like the parent. Other wise the child will simply grow up selfish and antisocial.

Christian's simply put God's rules in place or society's rule set.

Quote:- what is stopping you from saying that child deserves to be, say, raped?Surely flesh-searing torment without end is a worse fate, and surely some lava-skinned demon down there is going to get their hands on you at some point, right? So why would you say one and not the other, if one is far, far worse and yet can't be experienced on earth?

Because as it is, The wage of sin is death. a Death Jesus Himself paid. That is what attonement is all about. Jesus dies we live. We commit the sin and it get absolved, no punishment.

So if under God's plan/UNDER CHRISTIANITY There is no punishment, then why would rape then be ok?

Quote:I expect the answers will disregard the fact that we are disregarding salvation, and be flimsy excuses at best rather than actual answers.

Hey, Moron.. Disregarding salvation makes this whole thing a logical fallacy, and you intellectually dishonest because you know you are leaving out key aspects to the religion and yet levy judgement.

Quote:If this does not prove once and for all anyone who ever introduces the concept of hell to a child is no different from a predator, nothing will.

If this was a step too far, just delete it. I'm so disgusted with religious people right now, I can't even separate them from their faith.

Self righteous

Listen, jackass, you've already proven YOU don't know what the fuck is in your own holy book (big surprise) and since it's all down to interpretation anyway, don't act like you've got the fucking truth that no one else does (pot calling the silverware black with the self-righteous libel, classic projection of your own faults as expected). The way people interpret it informs what they do to their children and THAT is the god damn problem, not whether any of it is true or not, so you've missed the point (shocking) entirely and are just making yourself look like a bigger idiot.

The contradictions in the book and lack of clarity and need for subjective interpretation aside, you seem to have had part of your brain removed to miss that it doesn't matter what salvation does, nothing removes that impurity, it's just a mercy extended that we don't deserve, so we're still tainted and have no value, a proposition which makes absolutely no sense (not a logical fallacy, just a typical completely backward iron age myth). So lay a guilt trip on a kid, paint the image of hell in their minds, and keep them feeling worthless because of it, never fucking mind that there's a loophole, that doesn't mean you're worthy, it means there's an undeserved hand being extended and you'll still spend eternity as a lowly worm being trod upon by self-righteous tyrants who need constant colonic irrigations and like to employ human lips for the task.