(February 7, 2017 at 7:16 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(February 6, 2017 at 1:17 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's possible that the consciousness never actually leaves the body.  That the experience of leaving the body is a hallucination.  What do you think is generating the feeling of being "inside your head" at this very moment?  The brain has powerful machinery for creating the illusion that there is a something that is 'you' that is inside your head looking out.  That same machinery is used to create the sensation that you are outside your body.  If it can create the illusion that you are inside your body, why can't it create the illusion that you're outside your body?   What, do you think your consciousness has "where am I" feelers to tell that it's inside your head?  No, the where of your consciousness is generated by the brain along with everything else.

Just think.  Your consciousness feels that it is inside your head.  Which is doing that, consciousness or your brain?



What are you telling me, that the woman hallucinated that she was wearing long johns while her consciousness was outside her body?  Whoah, if that can happen there's no end to the possible false perceptions that consciousness can have!

Was that experiment-s done when there was a flat EEG reading?
It is paramount to know that yog because in the case that there was a flat EEG reading
the consciousness separate from the body.
If not then the conscious mind may have imagined things (hallucinations).
When you got a flat EEG the parallelism among body-brain and consciousness is gone and when the parallelism is gone the consciousness will separate from body-brain.
Similar to when your car rot away.
Why would you stay inside that vehicle any longer?

This is all beside the point. First you're claiming that OOBEs and NDEs are not hallucinations. Now you seem to be acknowledging that some OOBEs might be hallucinations. Well OOBEs are a frequent part of NDEs, if they can be hallucinations, then so can NDEs. So the question to you is, can the mind hallucinate that it is having an OOBE instead of actually being outside the body? If not, then what about the woman seeing her prone body wearing long johns?

Quote:How close are we to understanding the brain mechanisms responsible for hallucinations in psychotic disorders like schizophrenia? Among the various complex symptoms of psychotic disorders, it would seem that hallucinations might be a relatively discrete and precisely defined symptom, and therefore amenable to understanding the brain mechanisms involved. As a first approach to studying the mechanism of hallucinations, psychologically normal individuals with hallucinations due to lesions have been studied, and the lesion was generally found to be in the brain pathway of the sensory modality (e.g., auditory, visual, somatic) of the hallucination.6 For example, the complex visual hallucinations seen in Charles Bonnet syndrome are most often caused by damage to the visual system such as macular degeneration or lesions to the central nervous system pathway between the eye and the visual cortex.7

Recently, neuroimaging technology has been used quite extensively in an attempt to understand the brain regions and circuitry involved in the generation of hallucinations. Patients with schizophrenia experiencing auditory hallucinations have been studied most often. It might be expected that the basis for auditory hallucinations would be found in the brain regions known to subserve normal audition, language perception and language production. To briefly summarize these, the primary auditory cortex, which is involved with the perception of pure tone and pitch, is located on the dorsal surface of the superior temporal gyrus. This is surrounded by secondary auditory association areas that are involved in identifying more complex auditory sequences like the phonetic features of speech (but not its meaning). The middle temporal gyrus also contains association cortex responding to understandable speech. The 2 main language epicentres are the Wernicke area located in the posterior temporal and parietal cortex, which connects word meanings with objects and concepts, and the Broca area located in the inferior frontal gyrus, which is involved in sentence production. In addition, the anterior cingulate cortex, implicated in affect and attention, is thought to be involved in providing behavioural drive to produce speech, whereas the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex may provide a sense of the voluntary versus involuntary nature of auditory awareness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702442/

Which is it, do hallucinations occur in the brain, or in consciousness?

(February 7, 2017 at 7:16 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you read among the hundreds of NDEs you will find that many people could see things in places where they never been before when they were alive which it means that only an out of body consciousness could have done so.    
These experiences were reported to staff in the emergency room where the body revived and the staff there agree that it was true.

It's not "many" people, and closer examination of the few cases there are reveal discrepancies between the prosaic accounts and the reality. I've read the "few" that documents such cases and you're imagining things. You're being led to believe there are things in the NDE accounts which aren't there by your own wishful thinking. You also don't take into account the NDE experiences that clearly are hallucinatory, such as the following:

Quote:[S]he left her body and watched her heart lying beside her body, bumping away with what looked like ribbons coming from it to hands. In fact, this is not what happens in a heart bypass operation, as the heart is left within the chest and is never taken outside the body (Fenwick and Fenwick 193).

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(February 7, 2017 at 10:38 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(February 7, 2017 at 10:20 am)Stimbo Wrote: Great story. So where does the mind sit in the brain car?

It depend what layer of mind are you talking about mate Stim.
The super conscious mind is deep within the pineal gland but other layers of mind are external to it.

Do you have evidence of this or is this just more religious dogma?

(February 7, 2017 at 10:08 am)Little Rik Wrote: How many times people wish to get things that they can not afford?
It happen all the time but life is tough mate.
In order to jump into a better ship you got to be able to afford the price.
The consciousness is bound to stay in a particular situation because it can not afford the price.  

Reckon there might be a discount at the toll booth or wherever for consciousness that jumps from it's rotting brain ship when said consciousness is, let's say....diminished? How about a half price deal for a used vessel as a replacement?

I can prove that a dog's ears are in its legs. Using your largest kitchen chainsaw, remove the legs from any spare dog you may have about the place. This will be difficult at first, as there is a tendency for it to want to run off and hide; however it gets progressively easier with each leg subtracted.

Having delimbed the animal, walk away from it, turn and then whistle for it to come to you. The dog will simply lie there - proving conclusively that it cannot hear you, because you have removed its ears.

The question is really simple. If the brain can take you to strange places in dreams, why can't it take you out of your body in an OOBE? It's the same illusion.

(February 7, 2017 at 1:18 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(February 7, 2017 at 7:16 am)Little Rik Wrote: Was that experiment-s done when there was a flat EEG reading?
It is paramount to know that yog because in the case that there was a flat EEG reading
the consciousness separate from the body.
If not then the conscious mind may have imagined things (hallucinations).
When you got a flat EEG the parallelism among body-brain and consciousness is gone and when the parallelism is gone the consciousness will separate from body-brain.
Similar to when your car rot away.
Why would you stay inside that vehicle any longer?

This is all beside the point.  First you're claiming that OOBEs and NDEs are not hallucinations.  Now you seem to be acknowledging that some OOBEs might be hallucinations.  Well OOBEs are a frequent part of NDEs, if they can be hallucinations, then so can NDEs.  So the question to you is, can the mind hallucinate that it is having an OOBE instead of actually being outside the body?  If not, then what about the woman seeing her prone body wearing long johns?

You don't get it yog, do you?  
Hallucinations are hardly remembered while OBE and NDEs are remembered in a vivid, clear and sharp vision for a lifetime.
Get over with that yog for your own mental stability.  

Quote:How close are we to understanding the brain mechanisms responsible for hallucinations in psychotic disorders like schizophrenia? Among the various complex symptoms of psychotic disorders, it would seem that hallucinations might be a relatively discrete and precisely defined symptom, and therefore amenable to understanding the brain mechanisms involved. As a first approach to studying the mechanism of hallucinations, psychologically normal individuals with hallucinations due to lesions have been studied, and the lesion was generally found to be in the brain pathway of the sensory modality (e.g., auditory, visual, somatic) of the hallucination.6 For example, the complex visual hallucinations seen in Charles Bonnet syndrome are most often caused by damage to the visual system such as macular degeneration or lesions to the central nervous system pathway between the eye and the visual cortex.7

Recently, neuroimaging technology has been used quite extensively in an attempt to understand the brain regions and circuitry involved in the generation of hallucinations. Patients with schizophrenia experiencing auditory hallucinations have been studied most often. It might be expected that the basis for auditory hallucinations would be found in the brain regions known to subserve normal audition, language perception and language production. To briefly summarize these, the primary auditory cortex, which is involved with the perception of pure tone and pitch, is located on the dorsal surface of the superior temporal gyrus. This is surrounded by secondary auditory association areas that are involved in identifying more complex auditory sequences like the phonetic features of speech (but not its meaning). The middle temporal gyrus also contains association cortex responding to understandable speech. The 2 main language epicentres are the Wernicke area located in the posterior temporal and parietal cortex, which connects word meanings with objects and concepts, and the Broca area located in the inferior frontal gyrus, which is involved in sentence production. In addition, the anterior cingulate cortex, implicated in affect and attention, is thought to be involved in providing behavioural drive to produce speech, whereas the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex may provide a sense of the voluntary versus involuntary nature of auditory awareness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702442/

Quote:Which is it, do hallucinations occur in the brain, or in consciousness?

Hallucinations occur in a brain with a consciousness in it.
NDEs on the other hand occur outside the brain in the consciousness that has separate from the body-brain.  

(February 7, 2017 at 7:16 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you read among the hundreds of NDEs you will find that many people could see things in places where they never been before when they were alive which it means that only an out of body consciousness could have done so.    
These experiences were reported to staff in the emergency room where the body revived and the staff there agree that it was true.

Quote:It's not "many" people, and closer examination of the few cases there are reveal discrepancies between the prosaic accounts and the reality.  I've read the "few" that documents such cases and you're imagining things.  You're being led to believe there are things in the NDE accounts which aren't there by your own wishful thinking.  You also don't take into account the NDE experiences that clearly are hallucinatory, such as the following:

Quote:he left her body and watched her heart lying beside her body, bumping away with what looked like ribbons coming from it to hands. In fact, this is not what happens in a heart bypass operation, as the heart is left within the chest and is never taken outside the body (Fenwick and Fenwick 193). [/s]

Tell me one thing yog.
How do you know that that was an NDE?

(February 7, 2017 at 10:38 am)Little Rik Wrote: It depend what layer of mind are you talking about mate Stim.
The super conscious mind is deep within the pineal gland but other layers of mind are external to it.

Quote:Do you have evidence of this or is this just more religious dogma?

Yes I do.
You can also have such evidence when you will in the future practice intuitional science.  

(February 8, 2017 at 5:51 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(February 7, 2017 at 1:18 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This is all beside the point.  First you're claiming that OOBEs and NDEs are not hallucinations.  Now you seem to be acknowledging that some OOBEs might be hallucinations.  Well OOBEs are a frequent part of NDEs, if they can be hallucinations, then so can NDEs.  So the question to you is, can the mind hallucinate that it is having an OOBE instead of actually being outside the body?  If not, then what about the woman seeing her prone body wearing long johns?

You don't get it yog, do you?  
Hallucinations are hardly remembered while OBE and NDEs are remembered in a vivid, clear and sharp vision for a lifetime.
Get over with that yog for your own mental stability.  

We've already covered this and you were wrong then and you're still wrong. G-LOC and ketamine hallucinations can be very real. You're like a fucking broken record. You never learn anything.

(February 8, 2017 at 5:51 am)Little Rik Wrote:

Quote:How close are we to understanding the brain mechanisms responsible for hallucinations in psychotic disorders like schizophrenia? Among the various complex symptoms of psychotic disorders, it would seem that hallucinations might be a relatively discrete and precisely defined symptom, and therefore amenable to understanding the brain mechanisms involved. As a first approach to studying the mechanism of hallucinations, psychologically normal individuals with hallucinations due to lesions have been studied, and the lesion was generally found to be in the brain pathway of the sensory modality (e.g., auditory, visual, somatic) of the hallucination.6 For example, the complex visual hallucinations seen in Charles Bonnet syndrome are most often caused by damage to the visual system such as macular degeneration or lesions to the central nervous system pathway between the eye and the visual cortex.7

Recently, neuroimaging technology has been used quite extensively in an attempt to understand the brain regions and circuitry involved in the generation of hallucinations. Patients with schizophrenia experiencing auditory hallucinations have been studied most often. It might be expected that the basis for auditory hallucinations would be found in the brain regions known to subserve normal audition, language perception and language production. To briefly summarize these, the primary auditory cortex, which is involved with the perception of pure tone and pitch, is located on the dorsal surface of the superior temporal gyrus. This is surrounded by secondary auditory association areas that are involved in identifying more complex auditory sequences like the phonetic features of speech (but not its meaning). The middle temporal gyrus also contains association cortex responding to understandable speech. The 2 main language epicentres are the Wernicke area located in the posterior temporal and parietal cortex, which connects word meanings with objects and concepts, and the Broca area located in the inferior frontal gyrus, which is involved in sentence production. In addition, the anterior cingulate cortex, implicated in affect and attention, is thought to be involved in providing behavioural drive to produce speech, whereas the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex may provide a sense of the voluntary versus involuntary nature of auditory awareness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702442/

Quote:Which is it, do hallucinations occur in the brain, or in consciousness?

Hallucinations occur in a brain with a consciousness in it.
NDEs on the other hand occur outside the brain in the consciousness that has separate from the body-brain.  

So what's with OOBEs where they imagine false details like the woman wearing long johns? You seem to have an aversion to answering this question.

It's also worth noting then that Howard Storm and Pam Reynolds then had hallucinations, not NDEs, with all of the features of NDEs, including conversion to theistic belief afterwards. Thanks for proving my point for me.

(February 8, 2017 at 5:51 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(February 7, 2017 at 10:38 am)Little Rik Wrote: It depend what layer of mind are you talking about mate Stim.
The super conscious mind is deep within the pineal gland but other layers of mind are external to it.

Quote:Do you have evidence of this or is this just more religious dogma?

Yes I do.
You can also have such evidence when you will in the future practice intuitional science.  

So it's just more bullshit. You don't have evidence. It's dogma.

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bump

(February 7, 2017 at 7:32 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: The question is really simple.  If the brain can take you to strange places in dreams, why can't it take you out of your body in an OOBE?  It's the same illusion.

Lil Rik:
 
"Hallucinations are hardly remembered while OBE and NDEs are remembered in a vivid, clear and sharp vision for a lifetime."



How do you know that NDE's are not forgotten? Who told you that?

Meh, we're perfectly capable of vividly remembering things that didn't happen...as oobe and nde accounts themselves attest to, so it's not like it would matter if it were an issue of the quality of a memory.  I wonder what Rik thinks is doing the remembering, anyway...the floating mind passenger or the icky brain bits?

Good point. Memory has a try out and feel for recognition aspect that can contribute to the illusions dream states create. What we wind up with is god only knows what. But with years of practice under the right swami perhaps one can learn to homogenize the end product in a way which is mutually affirming, whether or not it bears any relation to reality.

Yeah, and you know..in light of system limitations and flaws that particular tick is understandable...but if it;s not the icky brain bits causing all this nonsense, then the mind passenger is just a fucking nutter for no discernible reason.  Talk about cut rate construction. It would be ironic if such a shoddy item just so happened to be indestructible and immortal. Couldn't get memory or perception right, but managed to nail longevity..I guess? No wonder it's lost it's mind-mind.