Please correct anything I got wrong but please specify if I'm technically wrong, like with a word I used incorrectly, or if it is just a disagreement about my argument. Thanks




Lets assume that every product of evolution, no matter how far evolved, always started in the evolutionary tree, with a very rudimentary function or use, which in turn began to evolve to become sophisticated. It would be like those Russian Nesting dolls, but that would mean that every product of biological evolution, like, ears, eyes, feet, blood, guts, bones, trees, viruses, cows, jellyfish… you name it, they all have a common ancestor at some point of the evolutionary tree. Down to the stump, whatever it was, and however it got here. So in a woo like way, but also in a literal way, we are connected to all of life. We are more connected with some because of how much closer we are in that line of nesting dolls. Again, I know this is woo sounding, but there is a shared energy between every living thing in the world. I think that the energy we feel is a mix between memories and emotions.

I believe that we were conscious, the second a single celled organism split into two. For the first time in Life's history, it made an advancement that would make it more efficient. Living was the goal of evolution, and efficiency was the tool. Consciousness, could very well be the first evolutionary advancement. Because some how, some way, a single celled organism that doesn’t even know why he, or she, or they, are here, but was somehow able, to use his environment around him to create something new. We know everything, that, seems tangible in our brain is merely just an image. But sometimes, we think to highly of our conscious ability. We understand that some organisms have displayed acts of being conscious but we are perplexed that ours, feels almost, special.

But remember, every product of evolution, had an early pioneer. You could play a game of 6 degrees to any living organism. The pinky finger on your left hand, has a finite degree of separation in the evolutionary tree from, say, a leaf. And every single living thing has a center line that we are all grounded in, a foundation shared by trees, bugs, bacteria, jellyfish, and whatever weird living thing you can think of. We (organisms) are all connected to that original big nesting doll, our Self. It realized that IT was the center of its own universe.

I am not saying that it woke up, like Adam, in the garden of eden. It was just the most Rudimentary of rudimentary evolutionary advances. I imagine our brains as being like a, masive block of stone, that has had bits of water dripping on it for billions of years, to the point that the Grand Canyon is created. It begs the question, what is the dripping water, I would say, the dripping water is luck. Which would explain why many humans have a grand sense of self, when it comes to good and bad luck.

Another aspect of Evolution is, Opportunism. When a product of evolution is good at something, it can evolve it on steroids. For example, all spiders have venom, and a few of them have venom strong enough to kill a human. But for some reason, millions of people are morbidly afraid of spiders even though they could squish them like a bug. I might be reaching here, but it could explain why natural selection went down that path. Because it was not just best for itself, but it was actually best for its closest biological relatives.

So think of how our early ancestors were becoming more intelligent. At some point, evolution used opportunism, to put cognitive ability on steroids. Like the few, evolutionary spider lines, that have amped up venom, there are relatively a few evolutionary lines in our apelike branch that have our cognitive ability. It now makes absolute sense, that our closest biological ancestors would also show cognitive behavior that is, similar in nature, but not in sophistication. Why do elephants show cognitive behavior? For example, they have been seen grieving, welcoming new elephants, and recognizing themselves in a mirror. They are also known for having an above average memory span. So think about that, they live for a decent amount of time, they work in packs that protect the young and weak, they mate for life, and they have a general sense of self. It would makes sense that they would have a strong emotional connection to living, dying, and their fellow elephants. If all products of evolution had a rudimentary beginning, then that would include love. So, it seems unthinkable that other animals could have something that feels so unique to all of us. Its that feeling that we’re special "for some reason" that we just can’t figure out.

That is my proposed solution to the Hard Conscious problem. The next little bit explains, why it became a “problem” in the first place

When the earliest humans were able to use their consciousness as a sophisticated tool, the possibilities were endless. Instead of the slow and steady pace of standard evolution, humans were able to manipulate their environment for their own good. The more that they could make their lives better and easier, enabled them to have more energy to disperse across the brain.

That is exactly how I imagine it in our brains. So this baseline Self, that began with such humble roots, is now Alec Baldwins character in Glengarry Glen Ross. He is driven on constant progress, and maximal profits. So whenever there is any moment, the brain doesn’t feel that its being maximized, it does a survey across its brain and then runs it through an algorithm billions of years in the making, and out pops an answer that it will now focus on. So just how our technological advancement had a slow, but gentle rise, and then an absolute explosion in the past couple hundred years, after science is discovered. Our brains had been always gaining a gentle rise in cognitive ability, going back to our earliest ancestors. Then, when we just happened to be in the right Branch at the right time, our cognitive ability went into overdrive, after the brain realized the power being self-conscious. Not that creation of self-consciousness, but we strengthened it. And because it was such a slow rise followed by a huge burst of advancement of thinking, we never had a chance to share that evolutionary advancement with any of our other living organisms. Nothing grounded us to them, because this evolutionary advancement was in our mind and didn’t require new hardware. It would explain why humans feel so special

That's quite the wall of text considering it doesn't actually seem to address the hard problem of consciousness. I mean. . . you haven't even defined what the term means.

If you are trying to say that the capacity for subjective experienced evolved, okay. You could say that with one sentence, since that issue has already been described and debated. But you still haven't explained why any physical system experiences qualia, rather than blindly processing input and outputting a behavior.

I think a lot fewer words could say a lot more, if you would put them together to express a clear opinion.

Can't agree...
You are straying into woo land ....sorry.

(February 12, 2017 at 10:18 pm)bennyboy Wrote: That's quite the wall of text considering it doesn't actually seem to address the hard problem of consciousness.  I mean. . . you haven't even defined what the term means.

If you are trying to say that the capacity for subjective experienced evolved, okay.  You could say that with one sentence, since that issue has already been described and debated.  But you still haven't explained why any physical system experiences qualia, rather than blindly processing input and outputting a behavior.

I think a lot fewer words could say a lot more, if you would put them together to express a clear opinion.

I believe that qualia is densely packed evolutionary information in our minds. They are like black holes that have become ultra efficient in their abilities, so they can input and output information in the most succinct possible form, feelings. I would say that if our consciousness is like an car, then feelings could very well be an evolutionary gas pedal and brake pedal.

(February 12, 2017 at 9:25 pm)Won2blv Wrote:          Lets assume that every product of evolution, no matter how far evolved, always started in the evolutionary tree, with a very rudimentary function or use, which in turn began to evolve to become sophisticated. It would be like those Russian Nesting dolls, but that would mean that every product of biological evolution, like, ears, eyes, feet, blood, guts, bones, trees, viruses, cows, jellyfish… you name it, they all have a common ancestor at some point of the evolutionary tree. Down to the stump, whatever it was, and however it got here. So in a woo like way, but also in a literal way, we are connected to all of life. We are more connected with some because of how much closer we are in that line of nesting dolls. Again, I know this is woo sounding, but there is a shared energy between every living thing in the world. I think that the energy we feel is a mix between memories and emotions.

  I believe that we were conscious, the second a single celled organism split into two. For the first time in Life's history, it made an advancement that would make it more efficient. Living was the goal of evolution, and efficiency was the tool. Consciousness, could very well be the first evolutionary advancement. Because some how, some way, a single celled organism that doesn’t even know why he, or she, or they, are here, but was somehow able, to use his environment around him to create something new. We know everything, that, seems tangible in our brain is merely just an image. But sometimes, we think to highly of our conscious ability. We understand that some organisms have displayed acts of being conscious but we are perplexed that ours, feels almost, special.

     But remember, every product of evolution, had an early pioneer. You could play a game of 6 degrees to any living organism. The pinky finger on your left hand, has a finite degree of separation in the evolutionary tree from, say, a leaf. And every single living thing has a center line that we are all grounded in, a foundation shared by trees, bugs, bacteria, jellyfish, and whatever weird living thing you can think of. We (organisms) are all connected to that original big nesting doll, our Self. It realized that IT was the center of its own universe.

    

I get what you're saying here, being the psuedo-Taoist I am. Inter-connectivity of live and nature is something I "believe" in. But you lost me with everything after that. I don't see the relation to the "problem of hard consciousness."

(February 12, 2017 at 9:25 pm)Won2blv Wrote: Please correct anything I got wrong but please specify if I'm technically wrong, like with a word I used incorrectly, or if it is just a disagreement about my argument. Thanks




         Lets assume that every product of evolution, no matter how far evolved, always started in the evolutionary tree, with a very rudimentary function or use, which in turn began to evolve to become sophisticated. It would be like those Russian Nesting dolls, but that would mean that every product of biological evolution, like, ears, eyes, feet, blood, guts, bones, trees, viruses, cows, jellyfish… you name it, they all have a common ancestor at some point of the evolutionary tree. Down to the stump, whatever it was, and however it got here. So in a woo like way, but also in a literal way, we are connected to all of life. We are more connected with some because of how much closer we are in that line of nesting dolls. Again, I know this is woo sounding, but there is a shared energy between every living thing in the world. I think that the energy we feel is a mix between memories and emotions.

  I believe that we were conscious, the second a single celled organism split into two. For the first time in Life's history, it made an advancement that would make it more efficient. Living was the goal of evolution, and efficiency was the tool. Consciousness, could very well be the first evolutionary advancement. Because some how, some way, a single celled organism that doesn’t even know why he, or she, or they, are here, but was somehow able, to use his environment around him to create something new. We know everything, that, seems tangible in our brain is merely just an image. But sometimes, we think to highly of our conscious ability. We understand that some organisms have displayed acts of being conscious but we are perplexed that ours, feels almost, special.

     But remember, every product of evolution, had an early pioneer. You could play a game of 6 degrees to any living organism. The pinky finger on your left hand, has a finite degree of separation in the evolutionary tree from, say, a leaf. And every single living thing has a center line that we are all grounded in, a foundation shared by trees, bugs, bacteria, jellyfish, and whatever weird living thing you can think of. We (organisms) are all connected to that original big nesting doll, our Self. It realized that IT was the center of its own universe.

    I am not saying that it woke up, like Adam, in the garden of eden. It was just the most Rudimentary of rudimentary evolutionary advances. I imagine our brains as being like a, masive block of stone, that has had bits of water dripping on it for billions of years, to the point that the Grand Canyon is created. It begs the question, what is the dripping water, I would say, the dripping water is luck. Which would explain why many humans have a grand sense of self, when it comes to good and bad luck.

      Another aspect of Evolution is, Opportunism. When a product of evolution is good at something, it can evolve it on steroids. For example, all spiders have venom, and a few of them have venom strong enough to kill a human. But for some reason, millions of people are morbidly afraid of spiders even though they could squish them like a bug. I might be reaching here, but it could explain why natural selection went down that path. Because it was not just best for itself, but it was actually best for its closest biological relatives.

       So think of how our early ancestors were becoming more intelligent. At some point, evolution used opportunism, to put cognitive ability on steroids. Like the few, evolutionary spider lines, that have amped up venom, there are relatively a few evolutionary lines in our apelike branch that have our cognitive ability. It now makes absolute sense, that our closest biological ancestors would also show cognitive behavior that is, similar in nature, but not in sophistication. Why do elephants show cognitive behavior? For example, they have been seen grieving, welcoming new elephants, and recognizing themselves in a mirror. They are also known for having an above average memory span. So think about that, they live for a decent amount of time, they work in packs that protect the young and weak, they mate for life, and they have a general sense of self. It would makes sense that they would have a strong emotional connection to living, dying, and their fellow elephants. If all products of evolution had a rudimentary beginning, then that would include love. So, it seems unthinkable that other animals could have something that feels so unique to all of us. Its that feeling that we’re special "for some reason" that we just can’t figure out.

      That is my proposed solution to the Hard Conscious problem. The next little bit explains, why it became a “problem” in the first place

       When the earliest humans were able to use their consciousness as a sophisticated tool, the possibilities were endless. Instead of the slow and steady pace of standard evolution, humans were able to manipulate their environment for their own good. The more that they could make their lives better and easier, enabled them to have more energy to disperse across the brain.

   That is exactly how I imagine it in our brains. So this baseline Self, that began with such humble roots, is now Alec Baldwins character in Glengarry Glen Ross. He is driven on constant progress, and maximal profits. So whenever there is any moment, the brain doesn’t feel that its being maximized, it does a survey across its brain and then runs it through an algorithm billions of years in the making, and out pops an answer that it will now focus on. So just how our technological advancement had a slow, but gentle rise, and then an absolute explosion in the past couple hundred years, after science is discovered. Our brains had been always gaining a gentle rise in cognitive ability, going back to our earliest ancestors. Then, when we just happened to be in the right Branch at the right time, our cognitive ability went into overdrive, after the brain realized the power being self-conscious. Not that creation of self-consciousness, but we strengthened it. And because it was such a slow rise followed by a huge burst of advancement of thinking, we never had a chance to share that evolutionary advancement with any of our other living organisms. Nothing grounded us to them, because this evolutionary advancement was in our mind and didn’t require new hardware. It would explain why humans feel so special

Pro tip: Get this first post down to 2-3 extremely small paragraphs or one the size of the last one.  Then see what sort of responses you get to decide what more to include.  You'll get more takers.

I'm interested in consciousness, personal identity and the concept of self.

(February 12, 2017 at 11:08 pm)Won2blv Wrote: I believe that qualia is densely packed evolutionary information in our minds. They are like black holes that have become ultra efficient in their abilities, so they can input and output information in the most succinct possible form, feelings. I would say that if our consciousness is like an car, then feelings could very well be an evolutionary gas pedal and brake pedal.

I'm sorry, but that's the definition of "made up bullshit," not "qualia."

Qualia is the experience of what things are like-- what it's like to see red, or what it's like to taste pineapple. The problem with your OP, other than its excessive length, is that you've never even mentioned qualia, which is what the hard problem of consciousness is about. Nor have you explained how you think an objective universe can arrive at the subjective experience of qualia.

Free association is fun for the one doing it, but not so much for the ones who read about 500 words before realizing that's what it is. Next time, start with crayon drawings of your ideas, and we'll work forward from there.

(February 13, 2017 at 12:08 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 12, 2017 at 11:08 pm)Won2blv Wrote: I believe that qualia is densely packed evolutionary information in our minds. They are like black holes that have become ultra efficient in their abilities, so they can input and output information in the most succinct possible form, feelings. I would say that if our consciousness is like an car, then feelings could very well be an evolutionary gas pedal and brake pedal.

I'm sorry, but that's the definition of "made up bullshit," not "qualia."

Qualia is the experience of what things are like-- what it's like to see red, or what it's like to taste pineapple.  The problem with your OP, other than its excessive length, is that you've never even mentioned qualia, which is what the hard problem of consciousness is about.  Nor have you explained how you think an objective universe can arrive at the subjective experience of qualia.

Free association is fun for the one doing it, but not so much for the ones who read about 500 words before realizing that's what it is.  Next time, start with crayon drawings of your ideas, and we'll work forward from there.

Ok, I'll go back to drawing board and try to simplify it

I've never seen an adequate explanation for why consciousness should be considered a hard problem.

It's only hard for us because we're using our own brain to understand itself.

(February 13, 2017 at 5:51 am)Mathilda Wrote: I've never seen an adequate explanation for why consciousness should be considered a hard problem.

It's only hard for us because we're using our own brain to understand itself.

I agree with your second point and to some extent with the first... pragmatically at least, but nonetheless, qualia ultimately remains unexplained. In my view it is entirely superfluous (epiphenomenalism) and the brain could do everything without it... true philosophical zombies... so it's a mystery not just how it exists but why it exists. Rhythm/Khemikal once asked me how I could be sure (roughly) that we weren't philosophical zombies but that doesn't really cut it for me... there is something there... some distinguishable change of state/difference (ie one colour different from another, and one moment different from another in the sense of things appearing, changing, and ceasing)... granted it's distinguishable with the brain/mind so perhaps begging the question... but nonetheless just writing it off as an illusion or whatever doesn't ultimately do it for me; change of state indicates difference and therefore cannot be Nothing... or can it? I don't know... that's one of my big questions. I've always wondered, is your perspective just a pragmatic thing because you're a scientist?... in which case I get it and share it for the most part in that the continued and perfect (imo) correlation between neuroscience and consciousness indicates they are one and the same... but nonetheless do you never, even just fleetingly or irrationally, wonder about the phenomenal nature of consciousness?