Spot on, Thump.

(February 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 28, 2017 at 5:38 pm)alpha male Wrote: I'm not the one who doesn't have it straight. Neither has bodily autonomy. Therefore, if bodily autonomy is the deciding factor, then both should have the same rights. I'm assuming (haven't read it all) that you're assigning them different rights. Therefore, bodily autonomy is not (for you) the deciding factor.

I am. I hold that an adult human has more rights than a fetus. The courts agree with this assessment. I think common sense does, too. It's clear that the fetus has no autonomy, by nature of its existence.

Additionally, adults do have the right to be free of governmental decision regarding their medical treatment -- i.e., bodily autonomy -- barring felony conviction.

So yes, I think you're the one who doesn't have it straight.

Here we go again with the "I am right because it is legal" argument again.

---

(February 28, 2017 at 4:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 28, 2017 at 12:22 pm)pool the great Wrote: What is your question?

I've already asked it at least four times. Do keep up, child. I'm not repeating myself for your benefit.  You're expected to stay abreast my points as your part of this discussion, and I won't do your legwork.

Learn to use your scrollbar and get to work.

ha ha, fuck you. 
There is no "the question", "that question", you don't have any mysterious question, you're just deflecting from the fact that you can't even answer two simple questions of mine:
1) Do all humans deserve bodily autonomy ?
2) Is a human fetus human?

It's just a simple yes/no question. You thought you were the only person that could play word games huh? Changing "baby" into "fetus" as if it removes anything human about it. You probably saw that argument in CNN and didn't come up with it by your own so I don't blame you much either. Meh, this is getting boring.

(February 28, 2017 at 9:27 pm)pool the great Wrote:

(February 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I am. I hold that an adult human has more rights than a fetus. The courts agree with this assessment. I think common sense does, too. It's clear that the fetus has no autonomy, by nature of its existence.

Additionally, adults do have the right to be free of governmental decision regarding their medical treatment -- i.e., bodily autonomy -- barring felony conviction.

So yes, I think you're the one who doesn't have it straight.

Here we go again with the "I am right because it is legal" argument again.

---

(February 28, 2017 at 4:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've already asked it at least four times. Do keep up, child. I'm not repeating myself for your benefit.  You're expected to stay abreast my points as your part of this discussion, and I won't do your legwork.

Learn to use your scrollbar and get to work.

ha ha, fuck you. 
There is no "the question", "that question", you don't have any mysterious question, you're just deflecting from the fact that you can't even answer two simple questions of mine:
1) Do all humans deserve bodily autonomy ?
2) Is a human fetus human?

It's just a simple yes/no question. You thought you were the only person that could play word games huh? Changing "baby" into "fetus" as if it removes anything human about it. You probably saw that argument in CNN and didn't come up with it by your own so I don't blame you much either. Meh, this is getting boring.

By that logic your murdering millions of potential humans when you sneak in a little "me" time.  Also by that logic, any woman who allows herself to menstruate is willingly killing a potential human through inaction. 

I believe, for many reasons, as adults we should have bodily autonomy. We should be able, legally and otherwise, to decide what happens with our own bodies. There is a reason we have laws concerning "adult age" or what have you.

That said: as long as I am of "adult age", I have the right to decide what happens in and to my body. It also means that at some point, the person I presumably gave birth to has the same rights. Since abortions after the second trimester happen at an extremely low rate, it seems ridiculous to me to talk about fetuses and bodily autonomy. Since when have they had the ability to decide that they actually want to live in the first place?

I've often had the thought, throughout my life, that I wish I wasn't alive. Where was my choice when my parents decided my birth would be a good idea?

(February 28, 2017 at 9:27 pm)pool the matey Wrote:

(February 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I am. I hold that an adult human has more rights than a fetus. The courts agree with this assessment. I think common sense does, too. It's clear that the fetus has no autonomy, by nature of its existence.

Additionally, adults do have the right to be free of governmental decision regarding their medical treatment -- i.e., bodily autonomy -- barring felony conviction.

So yes, I think you're the one who doesn't have it straight.

Here we go again with the "I am right because it is legal" argument again.

---

(February 28, 2017 at 4:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've already asked it at least four times. Do keep up, child. I'm not repeating myself for your benefit.  You're expected to stay abreast my points as your part of this discussion, and I won't do your legwork.

Learn to use your scrollbar and get to work.

ha ha, fuck you. 
There is no "the question", "that question", you don't have any mysterious question, you're just deflecting from the fact that you can't even answer two simple questions of mine:
1) Do all humans deserve bodily autonomy ?
2) Is a human fetus human?

It's just a simple yes/no question. You thought you were the only person that could play word games huh? Changing "baby" into "fetus" as if it removes anything human about it. You probably saw that argument in CNN and didn't come up with it by your own so I don't blame you much either. Meh, this is getting boring.

No doubt having your inattentiveness pointed out publically is not pleasant, but you still haven't answered my question. What is it that's keeping you? Are you unable to understand it? Perhaps your answer will make you look more doltish than you already do (as if that's even possible!)? Perhaps your inability to parse simple English (already shown earlier in this thread) prevents you understanding what is being asked?

You must advertise yourself as "the great" because such a quality is not evident on inspection.

---

pool Wrote:Changing "baby" into "fetus" as if it removes anything human about it. You probably saw that argument in CNN and didn't come up with it by your own so I don't blame you much either. Meh, this is getting boring.

Just to add -- it was you who changed "fetus" to "baby."

I don't think this is boring. I'm enjoying you showing your dishonesty plainly. Every word you type shows your disingenuousness, and I'm a big believer in never interrupting an asshole while he's digging his hole deeper.

Here's your shovel, kid. Don't stop now.

(February 28, 2017 at 9:27 pm)pool the matey Wrote: [...]
2) Is a human fetus human?
[...]

Is chicken egg - a chicken?

(February 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I am. I hold that an adult human has more rights than a fetus. The courts agree with this assessment. I think common sense does, too. It's clear that the fetus has no autonomy, by nature of its existence.

Red herring. The point isn't whether we treat beings with autonomy differently than we treat those without autonomy. Of course we can treat different categories differently.  

The point is whether we treat beings within a class consistently.

Neither fetuses nor newborns have autonomy. Therefore, if autonomy is the deciding factor, they should be treated the same.

I don't know if you're consciously engaging in sophistry or actually believe your argument, but your logic is really bad on a pretty simple point.

(March 1, 2017 at 8:13 am)alpha male Wrote:

(February 28, 2017 at 8:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I am. I hold that an adult human has more rights than a fetus. The courts agree with this assessment. I think common sense does, too. It's clear that the fetus has no autonomy, by nature of its existence.

Red herring. The point isn't whether we treat beings with autonomy differently than we treat those without autonomy. Of course we can treat different categories differently.  

The point is whether we treat beings within a class consistently.

Neither fetuses nor newborns have autonomy. Therefore, if autonomy is the deciding factor, they should be treated the same.

I don't know if you're consciously engaging in sophistry or actually believe your argument, but your logic is really bad on a pretty simple point.

The autonomy of a newborn is obviously different than that of a fetus. The first is practical, the latter is potential. And then we need to consider the autonomy of the woman involved.

Over to you.

I gotta say, this argument is going nowhere and it hurts to watch.

Although I'm confident in most of my beliefs, the topic of abortion is something I've gone back and forth on. I'm pro-choice, but I was pro-life not too long ago and sometimes I find myself agreeing with the pro-life crowd more often than not. But this is mostly because I think the pro-choice movement sort of hides behind the "fetus is not a human, not autonomous" argument when the pro-life crowd obviously has a fundamental disagreement with that classification. Am I wrong to say that the scientific community hasn't even reached a consensus on when life begins? I've read plenty of convincing literature arguing that human life begins at conception. The problem I have is... even if the fetus is a human being, are they legally a "person"? Women obviously are persons legally, and for that reason have their bodily autonomy (among other things) protected under the laws of civil society. Fetuses do not. So, regardless of whether the fetus is human or not, they do not have personhood. This was the argument in Roe v Wade, no? It makes sense to me. It's why I'm still pro-choice.

We could debate whether or not a fetus should be a person, but I find the debate about whether they are human to be irrelevant. Both the woman and the fetus can be human and the woman's bodily autonomy can still take precedent over the fetus's.

Indeed, we do value some lives more than others. But this is not a matter of weighing one life versus anther. This discussion is about valuing one life which has already been started against another which, until birth, remain potential.